Old Paints - Of any real use?

[rbenash]

Hellow Paint experts - would like to have some input on value or actual usability of old/original HD paints.

This previous post might be a good reference:

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...ad.php?t=13471

I've recently come across the same vintage enamel in Hi Fi blue (2 quarts). Both in the original HD boxes, etc unopened. Shelf sitting has turned it into a semi solid gel with a semi clear liquid floating around it.

Is this stuff any good for actual use? Is there any known method to rejuvenate? It's not totally dried out, the solids are in one semi soft mass. You can clearly see the blue pigmet, etc.

Could this actually ever be used to paint a bike (or should it even). Is it of value for reference, I.E. color analysis, etc?

Just a collector's item only?

[Paps]

If you were the first to open the can, and, the can was stored in a good enviroment, you should be able to use it, as long as you put the time into mixing it completely again. IMHO Paps

[T. Cotten]

I'm not a paint 'expert",
(I use a brush or paper towel!)
but I recently opened a tattered can of Congo Green (presumeably '49 vintage), and it was perfect. But how far will a 4 oz. can take me?

The great value of original paint samples is for conservation of original paint machines, only.

Modern fuels eat vintage lacquers and enamels, so using ancient samples for a restoration would be a waste.

And, no matter how the samples are scanned, or fresh paint is mixed to match, modern paint compounds will NEVER reflect light in the same manner as the original, 'extinct' substances, anyway.

It is a matter of physics, not opinion.

....Cotten
PS:
And, no matter how the samples are scanned, or fresh paint is mixed to match, modern paint compounds will NEVER reflect light in the same manner as the original, 'extinct' substances, anyway.

[rbenash]

Some good feedback, thanks. So - to conserve these as samples. Would it be good to mix them, I.E. break up the semi solid block and try to mix things back up thoroughly, then reseal? Would it be wise to find an appropriate thinner as long as very little was used (just as a solvent to help break up the solids).

What's the best way to conserve them or rejuvenate for use, say as original paint project purpose.

[Chris Haynes]

I have over 75 cans of different colors. Do Not Open The Can Unless You are ready to use the paint. Cans of paint these days are more or less shelf deceration as you car readily buy new paint any color you want.

[flthead]

don't open and stir to mix paint ,take to a paint supplier [mixer] and have it shaken first. walmart ,home depot ,they got 'em

[rbenash]

I have over 75 cans of different colors. Do Not Open The Can Unless You are ready to use the paint. Cans of paint these days are more or less shelf decoration as you car readily buy new paint any color you want.

Yeah Chris, I hear you. These are interesting in that they are quart jars - not cans. So older. You can see the contents I.E. the url in my original post.

So shelf decoration vs. - can you really do something with them to help preserve for an original paint purpose, etc that would hold better value or actual usefulness.

When you are trying to match paint formulas - would these be of value for that process? I've understood that the Harley formulas were lost for the early bikes (Pittsburgh Paints?).

[Perry Ruiter]

You may want to talk to Steve Johnston. He gathered up dozens of old cans of Indian paint to produce this wonderful collection of paint chips all sprayed with original paint. He also wrote an article about the project and it appeared in the Summer 2007 issue of the club magazine ... Perry

[rbenash]

Thanks Perry! I look up that article as well.

[rigidude]

stick a fork in it

...no, really. Or poke and airate it with something that has long tines then pour an oz of mineral spirits over top and let it sink in a few days. Then mush it up to a nice useable paint again... Use Mineral spirits only since it's oil based enamel and don't use Paint thinner or Naptha ! They wont hurt it but mineral spirits is a slower acting solvent.
I do this to ressurect old paint all the time. Depending on the solvent base. Even if you're wrong with the solvent/thinner - most the time it'll seperate and you can scoop it out or strain the curdles without destroying the paint, if it's not too far gone.

It's been awhile anyway, did you do anything with it yet ?

kikr

[rbenash]

Thanks kikr - your info along with the other information in this discussion will help be understand the best way to reconstitute and proper thinner to use. No - I haven't done anything with the paint (haven't even opened the jars) yet until I know proper method, etc. I'll open it and work it once I understand that as well as whether or not I will actually be using it. The person who is restoring the bike for me is very knowledgeable with the old paints. I'll also be taking this paint up for him to look at and get his input.

Based on your info though it looks promising. I want to make sure I have the proper silver undercoat before I would use this. Restorer has the proper (old) metal powders to recreate the silver base. I have time as paint work won't be happening for quite a while yet. I may still be able to find a quart of the original silver base coat.

One thing though with the older HD enamels in the glass jars is that they are baking enamels and require raising the temp of the painted parts to 265 degrees. At least that's the instructions on the jars. Even though it's called "air dry" enamel. So I'm assuming these would need to go into an oven or perhaps need to be heated with lights??

Another thing about the jars at least is that you can see the contents fairly well without opening them up.

Another note: I've re-read the Summer 2007 article in the club rag and actually plan to try to contact Steve Johnston. The other opportunity with this paint is to use it as a reference to get as close a color match as possible.

Also - if anyone has a quart of the following colors in original undisturbed HD containers that they are willing to sell I would be interested in talking with you:

Silver Undercoat
Birch White
Hi-Fi Blue

Air dry enamel, baking enamel, or air dry lacquer

[rbenash]

Painter/restorer has the old metal powders and can recreate the silver undercoat. I now have 2 quarts of original HD Hi Fi Blue baking enamel. I ran one of the jars contents through a fine cheese grater today. I now just want to make sure I use the correct solvent/thinner to mix this back down. Looks promising in that during cleanup the lead and pigment solids dissolved with the deglosser that I was using to just wipe the jar, cheese grater and workbench top down. I was able to grate everything and retain all of the liquid that was left and stuff it all back into the jar for now. I did make a small test by taking a pinch or so of the grated solids into a shot glass and added some mineral spirits and mixed thoroughly. It did break down and I was able to get a smooth liquid in that small sample. Just would need to know if mineral spirits is fine and how much to add to the whole quart and let sit for a few days before running it through a blender or something like that.

Imagine it would still need to be run through a paint strainer after that before running through a gun. With enamel, Air Dry versus baking - is it correct to assume that difference was in the solids used and not the thinner/solvent??

Running this through a mixer or shaker would not have worked as the block of solids in the jar was a little too heavy for that.

I do have V46 NO2 edition fo the club mag so have Steve Johnston's number. Going to give him a call to just talk with him a bit.

Painter believes we should be able to use this paint after taking a look at it as long as I can get it emulsified, of course I will be working with him as well. He claims to have used old cans of paint, will be able to work with baking enamel, and would make some test/sample shoots to make sure things will turn out correct.

So my undercoat issue is resolved, I have two quarts of this HI FI Blue factory paint. Once I am able to get this first quart reconstituted and tested it looks like I should have a very good color match to factory Hi Fi Blue with a true silver powder (not plastic) metal flake underneath.

Just need to confirm what material to use as thinner/solvent at this point. Might also follow rigidude's comments with a sample just to see how simple mineral spirits break a sample down. If that works then I'll start adding to the jar and letting it sit. That is if I can get any other significant input from the painter/restorer or get hold of Steve Johnston.

Ultimately it would be great if I could get some positive info on what the solvent base was for HD Factory Baking enamels.

[johnnyfire]

Paper towel,now I'm curious,please enlighten me,Johnny-Badgers

I'm not a paint 'expert",
(I use a brush or paper towel!)
but I recently opened a tattered can of Congo Green (presumeably '49 vintage), and it was perfect. But how far will a 4 oz. can take me?

The great value of original paint samples is for conservation of original paint machines, only.

Modern fuels eat vintage lacquers and enamels, so using ancient samples for a restoration would be a waste.

And, no matter how the samples are scanned, or fresh paint is mixed to match, modern paint compounds will NEVER reflect light in the same manner as the original, 'extinct' substances, anyway.

It is a matter of physics, not opinion.

....Cotten
PS:
And, no matter how the samples are scanned, or fresh paint is mixed to match, modern paint compounds will NEVER reflect light in the same manner as the original, 'extinct' substances, anyway.

[rbenash]

Update. Have the one jar broken down. Not enough liquid to emulsify. It's soft though and with the right/correct solvent should be able to be used.

Talked with Steve Johnston and Dave Clemmons out of Florida who were quite helpful. Was able to get some good info on a few other non related topics as well. Great guys.

Want to talk to a few other folks. That Steve and Dave mentioned. Bruce Palmer for one to see what he might now about this topic.

Unfortunately was not a able to identify the original solvent yet but have some more leads I'm going to track down. I'm also thinking that the difference between the factory backing enamel and the air dry enable may have only been the solvent and not the solids. Thinking that the solvent would need to evaporate slower since it would be heated to 260 degrees.

So also looking to understand that detail as well if I can - difference between baking and air dry enamels.

I know I can get repro paint from several sources, but interesting for me anyway to see if I can figure this out and use the original. Especialy if I can have some on hand to touch up the original paint sheet metal after I figure out how to get the pin striping off.

For now I'm going to paint a second set of OEM sheet metal I had acquired for the bike.

[billpedalino]

In my humble opinion, John Pierce of Pierce Colorright is truly THE authority on this matter - especially Harley paints and especially the Hi Fi colors of the 60's. I would call him to discuss.