Single stage paint

[hd36knuckl]

These days it is utterly impossible to find anybody who mixes and sells single stage paint. Most the bikes of the 20th century were single stage paint. But today about all you can get is two stage paints.
Should the club allow two stage paint jobs on restored motorcycles?

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Lacquer preferred

I've dealt with a couple of local area body paint and supply shops when I had my paint shop some years ago. They could custom mix and match any color in any available paint type I needed. I preferred the R&M and Dietzler brands at the time. Silkkens brand was not that common and I believe much more expensive. The enamel two stages were pretty new at the time and you really were taking chances using those catalyst top/clear coats if you didn't have a really good respirator and the correct filters. Not really suited for home use. Especially then as the HVLP type set-ups common today were virtually non-existing then, relagated to industrial type production work. Made for some nasty overspray too! Pretty much I would use Enamel for the frames and swing arms as Enamel is more 'flexible' and therefore more chip resistant and really didn't require clear coating. For the tanks, fenders, oil tanks as well as the necelle type parts I always preferred Lacquer. 10-15 coats of hand rubbed lacquer, hand wet sanded in-between coats and you can't beat it! Get a nick or scratch and I could repair it quickly while you waited and you could ride it home in an hour! Some guys also wanted a clear coat applied, but I think it actually takes away from the 'depth' of the color coat myself. The clear coats were best used for sealing the Customs Kandy and Pearls or the Murals and flames I painted. Course I'd wet sand and rub out the clears also. I still stay with what I like. Of course body prep was and is everything still. In the Early days of painting the Nitrocellulese types of lacquers were the norm I think. They would produce the best 'Black' paint jobs you ever seen. The two part paints are great for chip resistance and the powdercoats have come really far. But if you ask me, Lacguer is tops. Relatively inexpensive, easy to work with, easy to repair and touch up and will give any of those "Wet Look' clear coats a run for their money... Hrdly-Dangrs

[hd36knuckl]

Singlr stage paint

Hrdly-Dangrs,
If you are doing 10-15 coats of hand rubbed paint you are doing custom paint work and not restorations. Judges will also take points for that. Restored means to return it to the condition it left the factory in.
This is another problem I run into with painters. They want to put half a gallon of primer on a frame to make it nice and smooth. They want to hide all those nasty welds and imperfections. The problem with this is that is custom work. The MoCo painted frames with a single stage zinc-chromate paint with no primer coat.
Being from California with all of our clean air restrictions it is impossible to find a quality, single stage, paint.

[k.perry]

And if you did find some single stage paint...it would be wiped-out the first time fuel landed on it. You can clear coat over lacquer. Use PPG acrylic lacquer primer (DZ-3, gray), then lacquer paint, then PPG lacquer clear coat DAU 75 over the paint. The urethane clear coat uses (poisonous) DU-4 hardener. You need a "Hobbyair" fresh-air breathing system (800) 345-1178 Eastwood #34054) w/ half mask $378, when their on sale. Share the cost with somebody. Don't paint without one.

[hd36knuckl]

single stage paint

Single stage paint is the only thing that was used on Harley-Davidson motorcycles for over 60 years.
Currently judges are instructed to take points off for any restoration that has a clear coat on it.
This is the problem. Ya can't find any good quality single stage paint in CA these days.
I think the judging standards have to be modified to take into consideration what you can do and what you can't do.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Different strokes for different folks!

I'm a life long fan of H-D too, but there were many other Mfgrs building alongside them. For instance I remember standing in 'The Sport Spot' (a great British bike shop in North Jersey during the sixties/seventies, sadly gone now) and just staring into those beautiful Triumph gas tank two-tone and pinstriped paint jobs. I can't recall seeing any sign of orange peel or overspray. Had to have been some wet sanding/hand polishing step done to achieve that I would think. Even the frame paint was smooth. And I seen this on BSA's and Norton's also. And the Brits were/are sticklers for perfection. Over there you didn't just 'walk in' and start painting, you had to go thru a long apprenticeship. At the same time you could go over to Tramontin H-D and definitely see less then perfect paint on otherwise great bikes. Of course these were later machines, but still I would think that the Manufacturers took that extra effort to make sure that the petrol tanks and fenders really stood out even in the Twenties/Thirties. If lacquer paint is correct for any one period machine, then a wet sanding/polish step would be correct as that is how you 'Finish' Lacquer paint. That is how you achieve the 'Gloss'. I would also say that unless every Manufacturer had climate controlled spray booths (I doubt that), you could probably see the differance between a Clear/low humid day painted set of sheetmetal and a Humid day one. Not to mention the skill of the individual applying the paint itself. And forget 'bondo' back then, lead was king. Used for filling/smoothing any needed lap/brazed seams before final painting. Points off for 'EXCESSIVE' Clear coat finishes?... probably correct. Points off for a smooth paint finish?.. Depends,.. probably not....Hrdly-Dangrs

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Words To Breath By!

To all our up and coming young back yard painters.....Remember kiddies when you play, use the CORRECT TYPE FILTERS in the BEST MASK you can buy...Catalyst type paints harden thru a chemical reaction...not evaporative...Means it goes into your lungs smooth as a Camel cigarette...but only comes out when the coroner removes them! ... ....Hrdly-Dangrs.......Hey KPerry....Cool of you to edit so's the kiddies don't get the wrong idea!...Those resperator outfits are the way to go and worth every penny! .... I've edited mine too!

[Mike L]

I have a 1936 original paint fender which has a clear (yellowed)coat over the color. I have read they used a clear shellac over the color. I agree it's not like todays 2 stage paint, but if you want it to last it helps, as long as it isn't overdone. I used PPG's Concept on my 35VLD it doesn't need a clear coat but I put a thin coat on just for protection. You can't tell there's a clear coat over it. Actually the judges suggested it 'cause the first time I had it judged my decals got wiped out in a rainstorm. ( I ride mine daily)I've helped in the judging a few times and in the judges meeting it was discussed about clear coat, if it is on to deep yes you'll be knocked down, but it can be sprayed on to where you can't tell it's a clear coat. Like I said they did put a clear coat on back then. They called it a shellac

[hd36knuckl]

single stage paint

I have a NOS '37 gas tank painted Bronze Brown with the Delphine Blue stripe edged in Yellow. It has no coat of any kind. I also have an original paint '37 rear fender flap. The striping on it is quite worn because there was no protective coating on it.
The 1930s and 1940s accessory brochures that list all of the available enamel paints available do not list shellac. They do list Clear Varnish but do not give a use for it.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

I would think that the clear varnish would have been used as a 'sealer' say on any delicate water transfer decal or a pinstripe, rather then an actual clear top coat. A light 1 or 2 coats put on with a fine hair brush and left to air dry, similiar to sealing gold/silver leaf work. I've used this technigue on various British bikes and I believe this is standard practice on early British bikes also...... Just like to go back to a couple of comments you mention in an earlier reply. The art of Lacquer painting is similiar to the Ancient Art of Lacquering furniture (the name for it escapes me right now) Where you build up your paint w/repeated coats and then 'wet' sand in between producing a very flat even surface of paint that reflects light like a mirror, while making the paint appear deep. When applying Lacquer by spray painting the actual thickness of the paint actually remains quite thin, due to the Wet sanding steps. This was common knowledge and likely practiced by some Manufacturers to produce a 'Better' paint job then their competitors. And yes these techniques can be applied to Enamel, though not much more then a good rubbing out of the final top coat. As to gas affecting the paint...I did my friends early sixties BSA original solid red/NO clear top coat with three light coats of primer well sanded. This done on the fully chromed fueltank, applying the paint down the center width of the tanks around the outer edge and under and completely covering the tunnel, which leaves the side panels in chrome once you remove the masking tape. That was over 10 years ago and when I last seen him about a year ago the paint was perfect. Not at all affected by the normal gas fill-ups. Just keep it well waxed and wipe the spills quickly. Not a bad life span. After all it's just paint really. Of course this paintwork would apply more to later incoming sixtie/seventies 'Antiques'....Hrdly-Dangrs

[Mike L]

I stand corrected, I found the article about the clear," Harley-Davidson painting is of high quality, with n-o-s items showing a high gloss from the copal varnish applied after painting." This was out of Steve Slocombe's VL restoration book. The '36 fender definately has a clear over the color, but it looks like the stripping was done on top of varnish.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Clear Coating Enamel Paintwork

I've been thinking about this clear coating issue with regard to original paint work. Maybe we can amend the practice of point removal to allow for the 'clear coat' step in those States like California with tougher Clean Air Acts (as well as any individual using a two-stage type paints requiring a clear coat to seal the color coat) and still be 'Technically Correct'. Pretty much early paints as well as todays available paints consisted of 2 basic types. Enamel and Lacquer. Both types consist of the Clear carrier liquid (oil based or Lacquer based) into which are mixed solid pigments of color which could then be applied by means of a brush or spraying after properly thinning with their respective reducers. Both would require a couple coats to cover the part/item being painted. But it is in the drying stage that we see a differance. Now lacquer, because of its faster drying thinners dry from the outside in. To obtain the actual finished gloss of the paint, you have to wet sand and then compound the paint, effectively adding oils to the paints to obtain or 'bring out' its Gloss. Enamel type paints, the type primarily used in early motorcycle painting are just the opposite. Once applied, they dry from the 'inside out'. This slow dying time allows the oils in Enamel to dry 'Clear' over the suspended color pigments, creating a finished 'Gloss'. So now, if we were to add a 'Clear Coat' we wouldn't really be doing anything other then adding a thin layer of the same clear gloss thats already present. This can be applied to the new Acrylic Enamel/Lacquers. Their respective clears are fundamentally the same as the clears that carry the color pigments. Remember also that todays paints are Acrylic based blended in oils and hardening agents to chemically produce a better tougher paint. Don't believe acrylics (plastics) were available in motorcyclings early days. So while its 'OK' to use modern paints that would effectively loose us points (except for the fact that we have no choice but to), we're taking points off because we're adding a micro-scopic layer of the same clears that are already in the base coat paints. So unless I missed something....Seems we're causing a lot of unnecessary problems for some of our members and making a lot to do about nothing..... .....Hrdly-Dangrs

[Mike L]

Hrdly- Dangrs is think you covered it all. So far I've been to @ 6 AMCA judgings and haven't seen a bike yet that has been knocked down for nice paint jobs, I think most of the judges realize the types of paint available and that's all you can get, And since they allow powdercoat on the frames and rims they shouldn't say much about the type of paint used on the sheetmetal, unless it has a definite heavy coat of clear. Most people doing a correct restoration already know that.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

I agree Mike. I understand that we have more information on manufacturing processes on some brands then others. And that we strive to get what we 'think' to be the exact way things were done 50+ years ago. So then we try to imitate or 'replicate' (like in the case of paint and finishes) what we have learned during the "restoration' of these machines. But I think that maybe we should think more like the original painters of the time. They weren't trying to imitate anything old, they were trying to constantly 'improve' on their paint finishes and proceedures. They were competing for sales dollars and the very survival of their buisnesses. So what better way other then touting 'Speed' and 'Reliability' of their mechanical components then to present their product in its best light. And thats showing off the 'Painted' surfaces. So unless todays restorations are applying 10 coats of 'Clear' over everything including pinstripe, then a 'thin' coat of clear applied for protecting the paint & compounding of the top coat to bring out the gloss should be period correct and not be subject to 'point reduction'...... ....Hrdly-Dangrs

[Mike L]

Like I said earlier, all the senior AMCA judges I've talked totally accept a thin coat of clear for protection. They are the ones that suggested it to me 'cause on the week I had planned to get my bike judged for the first time my decals got wiped out in a rain storm. Which gladdly I still made J2.