DuPont Centari

[swall]

I just bought some DuPont Centari acrylic enamel, which I have used in the past, and see that many new options are available for mixing with various reducers, hardeners and gloss enhancers. The formulation apparently was tweaked to allow for the gravity feed low pressure high solids content type of painting. Anybody got experience with this stuff, good or bad?

[partshunt]

Re: DuPont Centari

Originally posted by swall
I just bought some DuPont Centari acrylic enamel, which I have used in the past, and see that many new options are available for mixing with various reducers, hardeners and gloss enhancers. The formulation apparently was tweaked to allow for the gravity feed low pressure high solids content type of painting. Anybody got experience with this stuff, good or bad?

Hi, I have also used Dupunt and PPG, all in acrylic enamel. Today I found that the Centarie reducer has been discontinued and I was supplied with another brand I cant recall but it works well as I have just done some parts today in black. All the local body shops have gone to Urethane Enamels and now I gotta find out if the AMCA accepts Urethane paint jobs or must we stay with Acrylic Enamels. I do know of a 41 Ford being rejected in a car show as original and moved to custom just because the owner used Urethane rather than Acrylic. That was a few years ago and wonder if it still stands today with any other clubs like our, the AMCA???

[swall]

Would that other brand of reducer be Nason? It is also a DuPont product.

[john pierce]

The people you bought the product from owe you the answers however heres what the solution is. First use a paint gun with a 1.8 or 1.6 fluid nozzle and either a # 30 or 80 air cap if it is a Devillbiss. A sharpe or binks use different caps but stick to a 1.6 or 1.8 nozzle , If you use a Sata Jet a 1.4 or 1.6 will do . Use 60 to 70 lbs air pressure Acrylic enamel came out in 1972 as a solution to all the acid rain complete paints we had to do , it was cheap and air dry and for overall use. Since it was new we had to dial it in while we used it . The hardeners were 792s it ****ed 793 it also ****ed 2000 came later it was good . Use that. If you can't get 8022s or 8034s use Laquer thinner # 3661 or 3608s these are going to dry quick so make sure the paint lands wet ,or it will show orange peel . Nason has different tail solvents in their reducers , I'm not sure if you'd get die back. For the record H-D's came in Baked Enamel as did Indians, I'm not positive about hte temp but 275 degrees comes to mind the aftermarket repair industry could not duplicate that so Nitrocellulose Laquer and Alkyd Enamel were developed , both were air dry. Acrylic Laquer came in the 60's , acrylic enamel in 71 0r 72 and Urethane to the aircraft industry in the late 60's and to automotive around 74, I put it on trucks in Florida . Also I have seen clear coat on a N.O.S. 25 Super X fender , a N.O.S. 38 H-D silver tank and also reference to it in an Indian color page from the 30's so it is not a new procedure , it finally works as intended, and ALL metallics Must BE clear coated. As far as juding You would need a piece of sand paper to test an area for clear coat on a bike . And a bag of ice for the judges black eye from the bike owner. Urethane Vrs enamel is like telling a bike rider he or she must have leaded gas when the bike is judged or no stainless spokes. But I digress , use Acrylic Laquer thinner if you can"t get Centari reducer, and get your product from someone who will answer your questions . John P.S. Laquer , Acrylic Enamel, Why???

[swall]

Thanks,John. The paint store that sold me the Centari told me to use Nason 441-21 reducer for air dry and it seemed like it worked OK. But I wanted to hear from people such as yourself, and your response was very valuable and enlightening. And I have a question for you--I have heard of old timers heating the enamel on a stove prior to spraying. Any comments on this?

[john pierce]

Centari

I guess that makes me an old timer. I always have my paint warm . It changes the viscosity and allows the Chemical conversion between the hardener to take place unhindered. Prodably the best reason is that the paint will lay down better , set up, and dry without running off the rivitts or accent lines . I have a heated floor in the shop that is about 80 degrees so I set things on the floor to warm up or if the cans are sealed i put them in the boiler room to warm up. The product works best around 85 degrees and it is FLAMABLE. careful !!! Also the chemical conversion between the hardener and paint is dormant below 62 degrees the color will dry but not cure . You can put the catalyzed unused portion in the fridge for a day or so and use it again in case of a slip up . One of the characteristics to beware oy with Acrylic Enamel on assemble is that it is Brittle, and shatters where it is compressed Tighten your fasteners from the inside and use locktite, excuse me I'm sure you know that . One other thing , The ambient temp in the shop may be 75 degrees but the steel is usually 10 degrees colder . It is always a good Idea to put the metal in a warm area or put a lamp on the parts , if your shop is like mine as soon as you turn the exaust fan on out goes the heat , my heated floor recovers quickly however. If you need to buff any dust out give the Acrylic Enamel a couple of days in a heated room with ventilation before you sand and buff . It is a clow cureing product. John

[partshunt]

Originally posted by swall
Would that other brand of reducer be Nason? It is also a DuPont product.

Sorry for this late reply, I missed seeing your message here but yes, Nason it is. No problems with it. I seem to have noticed that there is a somewhat diffence in the apearance between Acrylic Enamel and Urethane. Seems like all body shops have gone to Urethane and are staying away from enamels. As for myself, what I have noticed with Urethane is its slight foggy apearance on modern autos and even my 03FLHTC in Blue. Just seems to have that off subdued or fogged look. Not something you would see on a vintage 23 J er the like. Any comments?

[Bill Pedalino]

Epoxy-Urethane OK ??

Having read through John Pierce's informative replys, I must repeat one of the original questions - Does the AMCA allow Organic Zinc -primed, epoxy-urethane (OZEU) finishes? The brittleness of acrylic enamel has me turned off.

Furthermore, can the hHi-Fi colors be reproduced in an epoxy-urethane substrait? If so, is anyone doing so?

My understandng is that the Judge's manual states that the color and finish must be correct for the year in question, but doesn't specify the composition of the system itself. If my interpretation is correct, this would seem to make sense, as original laquer and simalar products are changing rapidly in response to environmental and legal concerns. I would think that the judging system would have to remain supple enough to recognize these chanes and respond accordingly and reasonably. If not, further alienation of the membership will most likely occur.

John - please chime in on this one , as you are the undisputed expert.

Bill

[john pierce]

Centari

I may not be articulate or politicly correct enough for this . H-D used Baking enamel It is long gone , obsolete... H-D did not use laquer at the factory ... Alkyed Enamel , nitrocellulose laquer, and Acrylic Laquer were repair industry or aftermarket options ,They are gone... Acrylic Enamel ( Centari )product made in 1970 was a quick fix for overall car and truck refinishing not used by H-D at the factory and on shakey ground now for availability ... Since what the factory used , and their technology is not available to us someone tell me why the only method to refinish and color match could be unaceptable? And yes I'm aware of Model A's with fenders done in one finish and the body done in another I'm told Enamel and Nitrocelulose laquer and I'll add I'd have to disect one to go along with that .( Steve may give me that oppurtunity ). It would bring the club to it's knees if we did not allow Urethane paint . Getting the paint Co's to produce Laquer ,( remember not o.e.m.) is about as likely as telling Exxon we need leaded gas for our hobby and getting it . Be prepared for the next change, Waterborn paint , it's more than a rumor. As much trouble as it's been making Urethane matches to origonal colors and costly I 'm sure I won't bother. By summer I'll have ALL the factory standard colors and many optional colors ,I only supply them with Paperwork , And I have all the Hi- Fi colors in Urethane. I did this all with out the Sam Kenison side of me interupting. If the gentleman looking for the optional colors for his 57 reads this I found Nugget Gold in Print and will have it soon. I hope I answered every thing . Incidently ,Doc Patt asked me about paint often I'm not sure of the current policy on color duplication or chemical composition acceptability.

[Bill Pedalino]

John - thanks for the reply. I will be in touch with you for information about the possibility of your comnpany painting my three restoration bikes.

On another note, I would love to try to spray my own black-work (frames, chain guards, wheel hubs, etc). Tanks and fenders would go to a professional - hopefully to you.

While I work for a bridge painting company, I have very little experience in automotive-type spraying, but do own a cheap gravity gun (touch-up gun), a very dry air source and a glass beader. Is Centari a good choice for this work? Is the use of Urethane adviseable for a home garage application, or am I in over my head?

Thanks again,
Bill Pedalino

[john pierce]

Centari

Call me Or look me up at Oley JP .The Urethane sprays the same it just takes a few changes of habit .

[kval]

paint

Gentlemen
positively listen to John Pierce when it comes to paint!
as for what the AMCA will accept, the judges handbook, section VI, page 12, item 2. spells it all out
"A motorcycle may be painted any authentic color available for the year of manufacture. ANY TYPE of paint MAY be used if the final appearance simulates the original finish."
as for clear coat, we will allow LIGHT coats of clear. if the finish is SO deep that the judges can see it without difficulty then there would be a deduction. we understand the need to clear over pin stripes or decals to protect the finish.
hope this helps
Kevin Valentine

[john pierce]

centari

Guess that puts that to bed . Thanks Kevin JP