Let's build a girl's bike: a 1967 Sportster XLH

[ammorest]

Hey Chuck, reading your post about repairing the cases I discovered a new word that I will add to my vocabulary.........."Hackery" That describes a lot of the stuff I work on. Thanks.
Dave

[chuckthebeatertruck]

I finally got around to starting the work on Mrs. Chuck's fuel tank and body work. Longstory made short -- a cursory exam of the tank back in December showed it had a bunch of hack "repairs" done to the tank. These included removal of the badge mounts, removal of the original cross over bungs and their replacement with 1/8 pipe barbs, severe enlarging of the mounting holes, some goober looking garbage on the bottom, at least one goober patch on the bottom, and what appeared to be a solid 1/4" layer of body filler over the whole tank.

In other words -- the typical holy mess you find when "builders" start working on sheet metal and copying something they saw on the internet.

The photos tell the whole story. Below are two of the turtle tanks I'm working on right now. The black, upper tank is for longer rides on my 64CH; the bottom white tank is what is going on Mrs. Chuck's 67 XLH. Both look OK in this picture . . .but paint can hide all sorts of sins.

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On flipping over the tank -- you can immediately start seeing odd "blobs" on the bottom of the tank and a glance inside showed some weirdness. In the following photos I've marked some of the bottom issues to investigate. The scratch test revealed epoxy . . .and no magnet stuck. Normally, that means steel stik filler -- but instead it was JB weld over brass. We'll get to that in a minute.

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In this case, once I removed the paint and body filler; I discovered some really poor brazing. As in super pin holed brazing that the "welder" tried to fill in by simply piling COLD braze on top of the pin holed stuff. Needless to say it peeled right off down to the original patch. One of the things that is annoying about finding old braze is that clean welds just went out the window. Unless you remove every single bit of brass, getting a good, liquid tight weld is very difficult.

As a result, I decided to rebraze the tank and take the opportunity to flush out the inclusions and bs pinholes the previous person left behind. I also had to braze up two seams and a weird, weird elongated hole in the tail of the tank just above the weld seam. The later looked exactly like some idiot slipped with a cutoff disc and cut a slot into the tank.


By contrast, I have exactly one dent to deal with on the black tank and then it is ready for stripping and painting:
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[chuckthebeatertruck]

In these photos, I hadn't yet removed the flux from the tank. I did that last night and the braze came out nearly perfect. I have two spots to pick some inclusions out -- but then we're ready to move to lead filling. I'll show that in our next installment of: dealing with other people's crappy repairs.


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In the meantime, the one skill that IS needed to do this type of work is heat control. In several cases I had holes ranging from 1/8" to 3/8" diameter to fill. One of the holes was in the tunnel of the fuel tank right at the 90 degree edge with the rocker box indents. Yet, some how, we clearly and cleanly filled it with only brass.

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The secret to doing this is to take a multiple step approach. First, clean and flux the area. Second, flow a very thin layer of brass at relatively high heat over the entire hole, including the inside edges. You need about 1/4" coverage around the hole(s). Third, let the cool a moment, knock off flux, and peel the flux back on your rod about 2 inches. Fourth, start laying the rod over the whole and pinching it off as the rod just becomes plastic. Continue laying pieces of rod next to one another like a log cabin wall until you've reached the ends of the whole. Fifth, carefully heat the brass rods at one end from the edge to center until they just fuse to tank. Continue around the outside edge and THEN apply just enough heat to fuse the center. This ensures the brass doesn't fall into the hole or blow out. The end result is a strong, liquid tight repair even though you can't "back" the repair from inside the tank.

This video gives a good overview of how to control brass with heat. Play around and try it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZNDpi3LR_E

Just remember, if you start using brass you will struggle to weld the tank in the future.

As for fuel vapors and explosions -- I'm not even going there. I've been repairing tanks since about 1990 this way and have done dozens. Yes, you need to take precautions like cleaning out the tank. The simplest way to deal with the fuel particles is to fill the tank with vinegar for a week. The vinegar absorbs almost all the organics . . . and thus you don't blow up. It has the secondary effect of removing rust.

[Jerry Wieland]

Most brass does not have the ability to long term contain gasoline - certain elements of gasoline can permeate brass. It will not drip but it will always seep and push off the paint. Oldtimers would always 'tin the bronze/brass' with lead based solder. I have used the tinning butter that comes with body lead successfully.

Jerry

[T. Cotten]

Don't forget Ruby Fluid's good for tinning, too, Jerry!

I'll never forget how one of my welder mentors chewed me out for flaming brass on sheet steel; I still have silver-solder he gave me afterwards...

Tinning tanks with soft solder is actually quite easy with a very large iron.

Here is a tank tinned to sweat emblem trim mounts.

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....Cotten

[JTR249]

I'm glad you posted these images. I have an Indian vertical gas tank for the 1949-1951 Arrow/Scout/Warrior models and someone welded four bolts to the inside of the tank for reinforcement at some point in the tank's past life. I have always saved this one, kept it in a box and told myself that some day I'll get someone's opinion whether or not the tank can be saved.
Seeing these photos and reading about the products and processes you have used gives me a little more reassurance that if these procedures are followed, the tank can definitely be used at some future point in time.
Thank you.
-JR

[T. Cotten]

One thing for sure, JR,..

Welded steel-to-steel is far, far easier to work with than brass-brazed!

Did the verticals abandon the traditional soldered (later silver-soldered?) construction of earlier models?

Hope so!

....Cotten

[JTR249]

Well, the pamphlet for the verticals says the metal for motor parts was a new experimental, aircraft aluminum. All the cylinder heads are stamped ALCOA (Aluminum Company of America). The pamphlet also says the metal work was called electric induction brazing. Technically, I guess its a different process than welding because the bikes were all considered lightweights with the heaviest listed at around 280 and the Warrior TT close to 300 lbs. Look under the Paint forum for photos in bright yellow and you can all the info on materials; fairly basic, though. Frames were chrome molybdenum. I don't know really very much about Chiefs yet. Started with the verticals and only have the Scout close to finished.
now that you mention it, I think the pamphlet also says something about 'silver induction brazing,' perhaps the process was not completely abandoned.
-JR

[JTR249]

Sorry, I suggested the incorrect forum. They are under Indian Metal Stamping and Foundry Markings.
Here they are.
-JR

[JTR249]

Here's another one.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

Jerry, part two of this repair is soldering over the brass to do exactly as you describe.


As for brazing, if you are the first in the tank, do not braze.


BUT, When you strip the paint and find brass, from that point forward you're not welding.


Repairing poor brazing, followed by soldering, and finally lining a tank is within the grasp of most enthusiasts with minimal equipment.


Thats exactly what im showing here.


I just gotta get all the pictures up.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

So, now for part 2.

As pointed out; brass/brazing has a lot of problems. These include flux issues, inclusions, pin holes, work hardening, flame hardening the base and the list goes on. Biggest issue is that you can't weld well to brass contaminated metal.

If, we were lucky and got the tank liquid tight; there's still brass sweating (not sweat brazing) where vapors can seep through.

To deal with this AND fill the cratered surfaces around the brazing on the tank top -- I flow solder over the patched repairs.

To do this, we don't really need much in the way of materials.

You'll need either 50/50 lead-tin or 60/40 lead-tin solder; acid core or coreless; flux/soldering paste; a controllable torch; a hardwood paddle; and patience.

If you can't easily lay your hands on lead solders; lead free plumbing solder does work. It's a bit "harder" but works well.

As for flux, I have had great success using Oatey #95 -- and I'm not joking. It tins the surface very nicely as it cleans.

In this case, Mrs. Chuck ran into a 5 pound spool of stearic core 60/35/5 linesman/roofers solder for $9. Yippee. Stearic acid works well for tinning and the composition is pretty good for body filling. It goes plastic a bit early, but flows well. The stearic cleans up with mineral spirits or kerosene, thus making flux removal pretty positive.

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I also had on hand lead free plumbing solder for the bottom of the tank. I use that for flowing thin coats over brass.

So, on a nice bright Saturday morning, we set out our supplies on a small work table. I will not, ever, under any circumstances do this work indoors. Lead fumes and evaporating acid fumes are not good for you. On the table is my crappy handy man blow lamp/torch; lead free solder, a snippet of the stear core solder, a hard wood forming paddle, a pot of soldering paste (urea based stuff to clean and lube the paddle), and a pot of Oatey 95 flux/tin.

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We previously cleaned the heck out of the brass and the metal around the brass. It's important to get out all flux and inclusions as well as to clean, clean, clean.

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That done, it's time to get to work.

I start with the bottom of the tank as I'm going to apply the most heat there to flow the lead free solder. I simply apply tinning flux, flash it with the torch until it goes grey, wipe to reveal the tinned surface, and begin. To flow a light coat, I "scratch" the end of the solder just outside the flame radius. You'll know instantly when the temperature is correct. From there I simply flow a very light coat over the entire old brass repair and out around the metal at least 1/4 inch.

I then flip the tank over and start on the top side dents. By this time, the whole tank is nice and warm. I again apply flux, but now switch to the stear core solder. As before, I "scratch" the rod over the whole surface to tin it well. Then, starting at the highest point, I layer and flow lead into the dent and over the brass. As it starts to cool to a peanut butter like state, I use the paddle to press it into the repair. From there, it is a matter of building and shaping the lead with the paddle. You can completely fill the dent if you wish. I left a bit of surface to cut back as I'm very comfortable applying a thin layer of body filler over dressed and cleaned lead.

The final result is pretty ugly looking until you clean off the flux and cut back the lead.

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[chuckthebeatertruck]

Here are a few more photos to show the "before" of the after leading.

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While I had the supplies out, I quickly cleaned the dent in the other turtle tank and filled it as well. I should have applied a bit more lead . . . but that's another story. I was tired and thinking of lunch :-(


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[chuckthebeatertruck]

After the tanks cooled a bit; I took them over to the parts washer. I keep the washer filled with spirits and naptha; so it removed the stear core flux that was left in seconds. We gave each tank a thorough wash and wiped dry.

Then it was time to cut back the lead. Let's state the obvious -- lead is really, really bad for you and the environment. I work on top of a disposable tarp to catch lead chips. I only use body files and never grind or sand lead. Do not eat or drink while working with lead. Wash your clothes separate of everything and take a long shower when you're done working with lead. Dispose of lead filings properly, please.

So, warnings aside, I cut back the lead. As mentioned before, I didn't try to do this as an all lead only repair. I used the lead to deal with the brass porosity and to help level the surface. I have between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch of filler to apply over the lead. I'm very good with this and have had tremendous luck with professional grade body filler over clean, filed lead.

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Next, step, however, is to Red Kote both tanks. I have been using Caswell Epoxy for the last dozen or so tanks -- but it's currently on super back order. So, Red Kote it is. After I'm done sealing, I will then finish the body work, seal with epoxy primer, and then we'll be ready to block and paint.

It's a lot of labor to do this; but to me it's worth it to save a $400-500 tank that was otherwise a pretty holey mess. I spent about $20 total on materials to get this far. The Red Kote costs me just about $40 from the O Reilly's Auto -- but it's enough to do both turtle tanks -- so that's $20 per tank :-)

So, we'll call this about $40 and roughly 5 hours of labor to save the tank.

Again, if you don't have brass under the paint -- don't put it there. But if you find brass . . .here you go.

I've done quite a few previously brazed tanks this way over a long enough time (three decades) to call it 100% successful.

[chuckthebeatertruck]

If you're wondering why I left some brass showing . . .the brazing at the front of the tank was done to try and mold/smooth the welds. It was an "eh" job and I'll finish their hack with some evercoat vs. leading. The other spots are some high spots. Thankfully those ones aren't over pin holes so the brass porosity isn't as much of an issue.