Powerplus or Bust, Eh?

[T. Cotten]

The advantage of parallel bars, Folks,..

(..or a huge lathe), is that you can hang the real assembly, rods and all, saving a lot of time and effort.
Faking it with bobweights adds error, and a whole lot of math.

I found when dynamic balancing upon a Stewart-Warner, just removing and replacing a bobweight can change things.

....Cotten

[Shaky Jake]

Rings.

Originally, the Indian had three compression rings and no oil ring. The new pistons will have grooves for two compression rings and an oil ring. Some people have run old Indians with two compression rings and no oil ring, especially in race motors. I figure that these pistons will give me the option of running an oil ring or not. The upside of running an oil ring is less carbon accumulating in the combustion chambers. I believe that a downside of running an oil ring will be less oil consumption. That may sound funny, but it seems to me like engines with a total loss oil system depend on a certain amount of oil being burnt off, so that it can be replaced with fresh oil, otherwise the engine would end up running on the same few ounces of oil for a long time. Especially with no filtration this might not be good.

So it seems like there are two obvious options. One would be to run two compression rings and no oil ring, and occasionally remove the cylinders to de-carbon them. I think this is the way they did it in the day. The other would be to run two compression rings and an oil ring, and frequently drain the crankcase and replenish it with fresh oil, perhaps as often as every or every other time I fill the gas tank. I would probably also mix two cycle oil or some kind of top end oil in the gas, to lubricate the valve guides.

Thoughts?



Kevin

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[Shaky Jake]

One of the guys on another forum mentioned that he had a 1924 Chief that he ran an oil ring on the rear cylinder but not the front. The idea is that the rear cylinder gets plenty of oil slung off of the flywheel, but the front doesn't. That is also why the front cylinder has an oil port and the rear doesn't, on both the Powerplus and the Chief. Anybody else have any experience with using an oil ring on the rear but not the front?



Kevin

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[Spacke2speed]

Kevin
Here is a little upper for your Power Plus project!
National Film Preservation Foundation: Beverly Hills Board Track Racing (1921) http://www.filmpreservation.org/pres...ck-racing-1921

I have just recently come across one of my old swap meet boxes which have a bunch of early Indian motorcycle cast iron pistons in it. Attached are two pictures of just the 1916 pistons. One 1916 set was used in the 1917 stroker motor I use to have (note the bottom skirt has been trimmed shorter), the other set is out of a regular 1916 motor.
Interesting sizes varies within each set:
3.108, 3.127 strokers, and 3.105, 3.111 regular
Interesting on their weights:
19.2oz, 19.5oz strokers and 23.2oz, 23.5oz regular
Because I use to have them around, I always ran original piston and original wide rings in my early Indians back then, so I did not have to deal with the issues you are dealing with, at least not yet. When the time comes, I will consult my local early motorcycle engine building shops. They know what the correct clearance for everything that will work with no problems.
I do not know about other people, but a friend ran oil control rings in his 1914 Indian, with no problems on tours for many years. When you run oil control rings on a motorcycle motor original using a total loss system, you will need to reduce the oil pump output to very low. That way you still get the “fresh” oil. Not too much to flood the motor with oil, causing it to overheat. And too little will starve the motor for oil. Depending on the oil pump adjustment, if too much at first, you just need to drain the crankcase every so many miles until you get it dialed in. The amount of oil needs to reflect the type of driving, such as the higher speeds on the Cannonball. You also have the hand oil pump on the side of the oil tank if you need a little extra oil while going down the road.
If you are concerned about getting oil to the valve guides, you could reduce the oil control ring pressure (if you use 3 piece oil control rings) which will allow some oil to bypass the oil control ring (amount depending on the tension).
Also it is my understanding that cast iron valve guides will help with the reduced oil issues at the valve guides.
Hope a little of this helps
Spacke2speed
CIMG6106.jpgCIMG6107.jpg

[Shaky Jake]

Thanks for that little upper, Spacke. That was great.
I'm a little embarrassed to ask, but does the term "pocket valve" refer to the Powerplus style side-valve configuration, where to valves drop in from the top? For some reason I always thought pocket valve referred to the Hedstrom style intake valve configuration, with the cone (pocket?) over the intake valve. In your video they used the term "Powerplus pocket valve Indian" so now I think I must have been wrong about that.


Kevin

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[Spacke2speed]

Do not feel bad, I am also a little embarrassed to admit I did not notice or question the comment. Good ear for detail. I do not know 100%, I can only assume it has to do with the side valve configuration, being the valve(s) is in a “pocket” alongside the compression chamber. The original “pocket valve” term most likely being changed to “side valve” at a later time. Hedstrom are “F” heads, if I remember the terms correctly, because of the intake over exhaust configuration.
Now that I have been demoted a couple of notches. What I did notice was when they showed the first winner, his bike was an 8-valve Indian with rider leg shielding from the head porting on the rear cylinder, not a PowerPlus. It was interesting to notice that they were still running 8-valves that late, being that the PowerPlus has been out in production for 6 years. As well as raced, friend had a rigid frame 1916 PP racer (it had a big intake manifold) that we converted back to street bike, with fenders, street front fork, street seat, and such (a fast street bike).
I did notice that the front exhaust pipe is missing, but the front pipe nut is still there. The lower part of the valve spring covers are missing, for ease of adjusting the valve, but why keep the tops on? The intake manifold looks big for a “stock” PowerPlus. The exhaust port area looks different then a “stock” PowerPlus. It has two different types of sparkplugs powered by an early style Bosch magneto. The little bit of frame showing appears to have Daytona frame features. Sections of the two oil line have been cut out and replaced with rubber lines, signs of vibration issues? There appears to be a knurled knob coming out of the top of the carburetor, not “stock”.
It is interesting to see what the Indian’s Ad man version of a “stock” engine is.
Hopefully that will bring me back up a few notches?
Spake2speed

[kneesinthebreeze]

Thanks Kevin for your documenting your motor mount plate discoveries. I went through a similar process today, with my '16 and remembered your post and found the answer to my question.
Pretty basic stuff, but fundamentally very important.
Nice weekend. Brad

[Shaky Jake]

Thanks Kevin for your documenting your motor mount plate discoveries. I went through a similar process today, with my '16 and remembered your post and found the answer to my question.
Pretty basic stuff, but fundamentally very important.
Nice weekend. Brad

Glad it helped, Brad. Makes the effort worthwhile.


Kevin

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[Shaky Jake]

Nickel

It's fun to get a bunch of parts back from nickel plating:




Kevin

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[Shaky Jake]

Pistons

I got a box from the UPS man this week... I wonder what it could be?








There's another box inside!








It has my name on it...








There's lots of pretty stuff inside:












Shiny stuff!













Kevin

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[exeric]

So Kevin, have you bored the cylinders yet? Until I was lucky enough to get a set of cylinders with mated pistons for my '16J, I had the chicken, or the egg scenario going. In other words, should I have the pistons made to a finished bore, or vice/versa? I am curious what the procedure is in such a case. Regardless, those pistons look beautiful.

[Shaky Jake]

So Kevin, have you bored the cylinders yet? Until I was lucky enough to get a set of cylinders with mated pistons for my '16J, I had the chicken, or the egg scenario going. In other words, should I have the pistons made to a finished bore, or vice/versa? I am curious what the procedure is in such a case. Regardless, those pistons look beautiful.

I haven't bored the cylinders yet. The way I do it is to measure the cylinders and decide how far I'm going to have bore them to remove all of the wear. Then buy pistons based on that desired bore, accounting for the desired clearance. Once the pistons are in hand, bore and hone the cylinders to fit the pistons, using the piston and a feeler gauge to measure the final bore. I'm sure you could do it the other way around, but I've always done it this way since I have more control over the boring and honing operation than over the piston machining.



Kevin

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[exeric]

I had the cylinders for my '24 Big Chief done by an outboard boat motor machinist as they are adept at blind bore cylinders. I'm just curious about this stuff as I am lost when it comes to top end work, and particularly blind bores as 6 of my bikes are afflicted with that condition

[Shaky Jake]

I had the cylinders for my '24 Big Chief done by an outboard boat motor machinist as they are adept at blind bore cylinders. I'm just curious about this stuff as I am lost when it comes to top end work, and particularly blind bores as 6 of my bikes are afflicted with that condition

Good tip on using a boat machinist, I hadn't thought of that. I use Joe's machine shop in Omaha, he has experience with blind cylinders from old motorcycles.

Kevin

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[Shaky Jake]

Piston Clearance

The Arias Engineers are recommending a cold piston clearance of 0.0030 inches, +0.0005/-0.0000. It sounded a little too tight to me, so I asked about it. They explained that it is because the pistons are made of 4032 high silicon aluminum alloy (some people also call it hypereutectic). The high silicon alloy has a lower coefficient of thermal expansion than, for example, 2618 non-silicon aluminum alloy. They also recognize that people vary from this recommendation, based on their experience.

I'm still considering giving the pistons a little more clearance than the specified three thousandths. The tighter clearance wouldn't slap as much, but I'm also worried about seizing a piston. If anyone has any input on this, I would be interested.

Otherwise, I'm now reading through all the info and links that you guys sent me about crankshaft balancing, so I can formulate a plan.

Thanks!


Kevin

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