Oil pumps, sumping, burnishing/reseating ball seat

[ricmoran]

47 knucklehead, lots of corrosion on ball seat has caused loss of 3-4 qts of oil in a 2 week period on a fresh bike build. New springs and balls used as well. So I used a chemical called Kreteclean from a company called EDPI. The solution cut back sumping by brush application as well as q tip application.to a pint every 3-4 days so some success was had.

Prior, I tried to burnish the seat but no success.

Looked online and found this:
http://www.precisionballs.com/ball_valve.php

Has anyone tried their #3 & #6 - 3/8" tool for refreshing the pumps seat?

[T. Cotten]

Ric!

I haven't tried their tool, but,...

After bench-testing seats with bubbles,
I found that because often the threads in the pump bodies are not concentric to the seats,
and some bodies were chilled too hard for a cutter, and even damaged ball bearing burnishers.

So only a flat grind from the top to remove damage greatly improved things, and any further treatment of any sort (piloted cutting, angle grinding, lapping, burnishing, or beating with a drift..) only made it worse.

....Cotten

[ricmoran]

Chemical rust removing removes the scale but does not clean the pits. TO get a square cut a floating tool such as the 3/8" diamond tool would most likely not get a concentric cut. I was concerened about that and though that maybe drilling the pumps screw cover over the valve (have extras) for the polishers shaft stability might help. The tools manufacturer cautions against hi rpm tools and recommends a slow turning tool to drive the tool.

At this point, the pump is not healthy at all as no resolve means too much oil loss over time. Might continue on with chemical rust remover but concern exccessive oil loss from pits. So after more rust remover time will gauge loss.

Las Vegas time could be coming, lol.

[T. Cotten]

Ric!

My best guess is the original factory seat was just a smaller hole drilled into a larger counterbored hole, with one fixturing.
The threads for the cap were added in a separate machine operation, producing a concentricity error that the Factory could care less about.

If you are grinding a flat surface, ninety degrees to the bore, concentricity to the seat drops out of the equation.

Just diamond-dress a common airgrinder stone to fit into the bore with a perfectly flat end on it.
Then pilot it through a piece o' bolt or something.

.....Cotten
PS: Folks,
I have studied this problem for decades, once even throwing teflon balls at it.
The MOCO figured you would run it often enough to purge the sump.
"Often enough" is aggravated by decades of wear.

So either ride it often, or drain the tank.

[ricmoran]

From what I could see inside the ball valves galley way, it looks like the seating material is shaped like a short funnel the extrudes into the galleyway from the wall of of the pump, both inside and out. Maybe its my messed up vision but this image shows that the seat area is quite narrow and over polishing it ould seem to make the opening wider from seat shoulder to seat shoulder. Tried to attach an image but file size is too large.

[ricmoran]

So either ride it often, or drain the tank.[/QUOTE]

Leave it running, lol. Yes, both are an option and so is hunting for a better conditioned pump. I have a thought that after 7 decades it might be like trying to findout a needle in a haystack.

Any idea how well the repro V Twin oil pump performs?

[T. Cotten]

From what I could see inside the ball valves galley way, it looks like the seating material is shaped like a short funnel the extrudes into the galleyway from the wall of of the pump, both inside and out. Maybe its my messed up vision but this image shows that the seat area is quite narrow and over polishing it ould seem to make the opening wider from seat shoulder to seat shoulder. Tried to attach an image but file size is too large.

Ric!

I have an arthroscope for inspection, but only large defects are obvious. (So I rely on bubbles.)

Your instincts are correct that a wide seat is not better.
(Its not like a motor valve that must conduct its heat.)

If you would like to email me your pic at liberty@npoint.net, I can quickly re-size it and return it to you, or post it here if you wish.
(Or open it on your PC by right-clicking and then choosing "Open with" and then "Paint". Up at the left you will see "resize". Just cut your pixels in half and see if it will upload.)

....Cotten

[ricmoran]

Tom, was thinking of attempting the repair and sending you the 2 diamond impregnated grinders to see what results you get with them. Will send image to your email address.

[T. Cotten]

Whoa Ric!

I haven't accepted any new motorwork accounts in over fifteen years; A test would be unlikely.

Considering how much time, effort, resources, and money I have lost studying this problem, I prefer to let others take over.

But my opinion is always available,

....Cotten

[ricmoran]

Ok, will try it out and advise what happens. Cutting back in work is a good thing tho. Do you still do peek seals on manifolds yet?

[T. Cotten]

Ric!

I re-sized your pic, and added one of mine.

....Cotten
PS: Yes, manifold and float services are all I can offer at this time, as the Schebler Wars are still getting the better of me.

[ricmoran]

Its been awhile. Still frustrated by sumping. Got it down to about a quarter cup a nite but knowing the bottom end is full makes the oil loss about 1/2 to 3/4 cup or slightly more over a 24 hour period. Sent the pump out to have a new seat cut, leaks worse. Tom Cotton, was thinking could a threaded peek rod be cut and threaded and have a seat cut into the peek material? Then using a security screwdriver bit (have small holes drilled to fit the security screw drive bit, screw a peek seat into the opening, then assemble with spring and ball sizing the spring for correct finish to fit the seat correctly? Couple better detailed close up images of the seat after diamond rouge polishing, looks good but still leaks.

[T. Cotten]

Anything is possible, Ric!

But sealing around an insert is another issue. Cast iron, brass, or steel would accept goobers, whereas next to nothing sticks to PEEK.

I can send you some PEEK if you like, but I think its a lot of grief compared to a simple flat-grind.

Apparently you sent it so someone who just performed a blind "poke and hope", and didn't bother to do the simple bubble-test?

....Cotten
PS: Folks,
Sometimes I had phenomenal success, and sometimes nothing helped.
One costly effort was a total '49 I completed, which just wouldn't stop sumping, no matter what.

Finally, with the pump and cam cover removed in the chassis (which makes re-sealing even fresh gaskets a real pain..), I found with compressed air where somebody had a "better idea" to drill out a gallery in the case to bypass the ball check.

No doubt it was an EasyRiders tip.

PPS: Anybody remember the funny balls with tails for '53?

[ricmoran]

I asked about testing and had not gotten a call back from the people who did the work. Thought about flat grinding but concern is the depth of the cut the pump now has. Oversize ball bearing, to the next size up, has proved to be impossible to find. So, it seems the next logical thing to do isbbq start buying oil.pumps, try them, the one that leaks the least is the winner. I do know of a product from a company, Belzona, who has a coating that could be applied, then worked down with a fine rouge to smooth out the finish. Here is a link:
https://www.belzona.com/en/products/1000/1111.aspx
Thanks for reply Tom. More thought on how to make a screw in seat has to be thought about. Thank you for your kind offer Tom, will advise as I discover more info on how that could be done.

[T. Cotten]

Ric!

Calm down.

They will all leak if you test them.

The immediate remedy ain't rocket surgery.

....Cotten