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  • Excelsior engine balancing

    I wanted to do some reverse engineering in an effort to determine what kind of balance factor was used by the Excelsior factory to balance the 61” Big X engines. For this test, I’m dealing with the 1916-1924 61” Excelsior twins which used common crank assembly parts for those years.

    First a few observations and some details:
    1. I have seen many X flywheels from these engines and none of them show any signs of having any balance work done on them. There are no drill or grind marks anywhere on these flywheels and no additional weight added anywhere. It appears that the X engineers did their balancing homework ahead of time, then simply cast the flywheels all the same, assuming that if all the components are made within some acceptable range of specification, that would be close enough.
    2. Engine specifications: 61 cubic inches, Bore = 3.328” Stroke = 3.5”
    3. I used all original X components. These are used parts, but all in very good condition. Since they are worn, my measurements are off some, but all in all should get close to determining the original balance numbers.
    4. Cast iron pistons with 3 rings. Weight of the entire piston assembly with pin is 764 grams. Since I only have one good original complete piston assembly I assumed the same weight for both piston assemblies.
    5. Cast iron spoked flywheels, diameter is 9 ¾”. Weight is approximately 12.5 lbs per wheel, not including the drive shafts.
    6. Weight of crank pin assembly with bearings, cages, nuts and locks: 464.6 g
    7. Rods, forged steel with non replaceable races, the big end is hardened and the rollers run directly on the rod. This was standard X practice through 1924. Length between hole centers is 8 3/8”. Total weight of each rod is within 2 grams of each other. Also interesting to note that the wrist pin end is actually heavier than the crank pin end by a ratio of about 55% to 45%, much different than Indian and Harley! The X rods were very spindly things indeed! The numbers are as follows:
    • Front (forked) rod total weight: 468 g. Crank end = 222.6 g. Wrist pin end = 245.4g.
    • Rear rod total weight: 466g. Crank end =209 g. Wrist pin end = 257g.
    8. Weight of the entire crank assembly including rods, shafts, bearings and flywheels (no pistons) is approximately 29.6 lbs.

    My first test was to use the common simple method of balancing as laid out in the Indian literature, early Harley literature and Uncle Franks musings as well as other early sources. . As mentioned in one book, “…….this is not necessarily an actual test of factory balance, however it is sufficiently close for all practical purposes.” And, “….you can obtain a very satisfactory balance by following this procedure for either Excelsior or Super X, Harley or Indian.”

    This test requires assembling the entire crank with flywheels, shafts, bearings, cages, rods and one piston assembly with rings, pin and keepers attached to the male rod. This assembly is then laid on a set of parallels and should, in theory, be balanced, or at least close. I did this and used a passing wheel balance stand that I inherited a while back.

    The results were not as expected! With one piston assembly attached, the piston instantly fell to the bottom, counter weight up. Not even close to being balanced! I removed the entire piston assembly and tried again. It was then very close to a perfect balance. I added small magnetic weights, 20 g. to the counter weight and 20 grams half way between the crank pin and counter weight on one side. This second weight makes sense as the spoked hole opposite this weight is a very rough casting and has additional material inside the hole. With these 2 small additional weights, and NO PISTON attached, I was able to obtain almost a perfect balance! So, according to the old method, this crank should be horribly out of balance! Keep in mind each cast iron piston assembly weighs764 g., so this means the counter weight is light by just about that amount! That’s a lot of weight!

    Next, I disassembled the entire crank assembly and weighed each component. Then I balanced each flywheel separately by adding weight to the crank pin bob weight. The weights required to balance each flywheel individually were then added together. This represents the theoretical weight needed to balance the 2 flywheels when assembled. These numbers were entered into the standard S&S balancing work sheet. Once I did this, simply working from both ends of the work sheet, I was able to calculate the balance factor for this setup. I came up with a balance factor of 23.3% which is crazy! General consensus seems to be in the 50 to 60% range for most V twins but the exact number is an area of great debate. However, this 23.3% number does correlate with the general rule of removing more weight from the flywheel counter weight to achieve a lower balance factor.

    Looking at things from a different angle, I entered all the weights into the S&S worksheet and, for the sake of comparison, used a 60% balance factor. Working through the math on the worksheet yields a bob weight of 1057.1g. per flywheel. Compare this number with the actual weight which I found will balance one flywheel as it is (averaged to 684.6) and there is a huge difference, of 372.6g.! This means in the original configuration, the counter weight of each flywheel is 372.6 g. too light to balance this crank assembly at 60%. If I do the math with say a 50% balance factor, the counter weight of each flywheel is 271.6 g. too light. If my numbers are correct, I understand this to mean that in order to balance this crank by today’s standards, I would need to either add considerable weight to the counter weight of each flywheel (271- 372 g. depending on balance factor used) or remove a comparable amount from the crank pin area of the flywheels. This seems outrageous and may not even be possible.

    When it comes time to actually balance my ‘24 crank assembly, I will be using aluminum pistons. The difference in weight should be significant and will reduce those crazy bob weight imbalance numbers quite a bit, but still will be way off.

    So, I see a few possible answers to the glaring imbalance (pun intended) of the numbers:
    1. My math is all wrong! I’ve double, even triple checked the numbers, but I’ve been consistently wrong before!
    2. Excelsior engines were horribly out of balance!
    3. The “arbitrary” balance factors of 50-60% are not that important.

    Now, I will admit, because I’m using worn components which came from different engines, this is not anywhere near a perfect test. However, I’ve cleaned and fitted these parts carefully and am quite sure this is a correct assembly of parts for the application. So, I should at least be close to some commonly accepted balance factor or standard but the results show otherwise.

    I’m anxious to hear input from others that understand balancing better than I do and especially anyone who has balanced Excelsior engines in the past and then ridden them to see how they actually perform.

    I remember Brad Wilmarth telling me that the early X flywheels do not have enough counter weight in them so either add counter weight or remove weight from the crank pin side of the flywheels. Steve Huntzinger confirms this and swears by the early method of balancing for the older machines.

    Gene Harper
    12/31/2015

    IMG_0380.jpgIMG_0387.jpgIMG_0386.jpg

  • #2
    I think some other considerations are going to surface on us.
    1. I couldn't help noticing the size of your cases (at Fremont), and so I'm not surprised that your 61" wheels are of larger diameter than Indian's 74". So I think (smell, maybe) that the counterweight's position relative to the crankpin and the crank's radius from center will be a factor in the difference.
    2. It appears that balancing the rotating mass (crankpin, rollers, cages, nuts, thrust washers, AND the lower half of the rods) is barely possible, and you report that 23% of top half (reciprocating) is all that's available after off-setting the rotating mass. Just looking at your photos it appears that the counterweight is too small, and those big holes don't help either. You might trim 600 grams of piston weight with aluminum's, what's that look like?
    3. Your bore/stroke are much closer to "square", and I believe that this affects balance factor (until I can read something empirical (?) I'm going to believe this).
    4. I've never seen an S&S worksheet, but I've heard that they are only workable with 60%, because that's the only number they know?? Where do I get one?
    5. Your wheels are heavier than "normal" by about 2#, imo.
    Okay, where's Cotten?
    Last edited by fillibuster; 01-01-2016, 09:55 PM. Reason: additional comment

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    • #3
      Gene!

      If you know the weight of the rod tops, then with the assembled crank on the stand, just add weight to the rod tops until it achieves balance, weigh that, and then you can calculate the existing factor.

      The weight of the total flymass isn't part of the formula: Heavy wheels and light wheels can both have the same factor.

      What little I know, I learned here: http://virtualindian.org/1techflywheel.htm, with special attention to Herr Elvenkemper's corrections in the theory and factors discussions.

      .....Cotten
      PS: Filibuster! Yes, 60% is all S&S knows (revised from 52% in the mid-'80s), even when the stroke or rod angle changes. They even insist the tops of the rods must be equal, which is nowhere in the formula, either.
      Last edited by T. Cotten; 01-02-2016, 09:23 AM.
      AMCA #776
      Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

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      • #4
        Tom,

        I do know the weight of the rod top ends. The problem is with pistons off, I still had to add about 20 grams to the counter weight end of the crank to achieve balance. So in essence, the crank is close to being balanced with no pistons attached!

        Using the S&S formula, you can plug in any number you wish for a balance factor. 60% is the norm but in theory, other numbers will work as well. My % numbers were established by using the S&S method and working from both ends of the work sheet to calculate the unknown balance factor, as all other numbers are obtained from actual measurements.

        Fillibuster, here is a link to the S&S instructions and work sheet: http://www.sscycle.com/files/3313/70...ancing_kit.pdf

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        • #5
          Well Gene,

          You are saving History to record the existing factor. It is what it is, and presumeably what it was.

          Screw S&S. Other than keeping the FlatheadPower forum open, they do little or nothing for the vintage industry, only their own products.

          Please consider their insistance upon balancing flywheels separately;
          If your flywheels are not moving as a single mass, you've got much bigger problems than 'balancing'!

          ....Cotten
          Last edited by T. Cotten; 01-02-2016, 03:28 PM.
          AMCA #776
          Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

          Comment


          • #6
            Tom,

            Don't screw S&S so quickly (slow down and enjoy it?). They have at least given me the some of the tools to actually do some balancing work and a worksheet to help me understand the process and give a starting point, so there is something there anyway.

            Now the question is: When I do build the X motor, how should I balance it? I'll be using Phil Schack's new rods which weigh a bit more than the originals and are heavier on the big end, but not by much. Also will be using aluminum pistons. These two ghanges will reduce the reciprocating weigh and increase the rotating weight. The result I believe will mean that I need to remove less weight from the crank pin edge of the flywheels. So, static balance each wheel individually at 60% say, or some other number? Or, balance the crank assembly with one piston installed as per the old early method?

            Comment


            • #7
              With all due respect, Gene,...

              The creators of your motorcycle were not confused by S&S "trumpian" bluster, yet the machines were still 'great'.

              Please do History its Justice, and determine the original factor.
              Then people can be as revisionist as they may please, but the real thing will at least be recorded.

              I have no Excelsior, but I will still appreciate your effort.

              ....Cotten
              AMCA #776
              Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

              Comment


              • #8
                Gene, I balanced every motor I've overhauled for over 30 yrs. Before I was doing lower ends I had the fellas at Highway Choppers in Phoenix, AZ balance my 65FLH motor. The difference from the oem balance and their work was unbelievable. They balanced my flywheels with a Michigan? spin balancer at 58%. When I opened my shop in 82 I bought the S$S kit. I balanced at 60% at their recommendation with great success. A couple of my dragracing friends said they found a factor of 55% gave at smoother engine at high RPM. I experimented with factors of 55 and 58 on street motors and found no real seat of the pants difference. When I first discovered the Flathead Power forum I thought I would tap the knowledge and experience of some of the members so I started asking questions. Apparently I was late to the party and nobody really wanted to go through it all with some new guy. I was directed to the forum archives and I gathered all the info I could get until my head started to spin. I just couldn't understand how the same general factor could work in motors as varied as a Harley WL, short stroke EL motor with heavy wheels and a 100ci shovel stroker. I was never able to reconcile with the info available so I gave up. I can say that a static balance at 60% with a proper flywheel truing will give you a smooth happy motor. Chief motors and 45 WL motors alike are much smoother than factory attempts. I'm not familiar with your Excelsior flywheels and what sort of drilling or machining you will have to do to get there, but i'm sure you will enjoy the results.
                Kyle Oanes AMCA # 3046

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                • #9
                  Gene!

                  I am not familiar with anything on an Excelsior (except perhaps the carb and manifold), so I must ask:
                  How is the motor mounted into the frame?

                  Is it sturdiest fore-and-aft at the bottom, with a lighter top mount? Is there a top mount at all?

                  This would be my second consideration for whether a factor should be 'high' or 'low'.
                  (Determining the original factor would be first.)

                  ....Cotten
                  AMCA #776
                  Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Kyle, Thanks for your insight! That all makes sense and is pretty much what Jeff Grigsby tells me. He has tried all kinds of stuff over the years, static, dynamic, different factors and still comes back to the basic S&S method at 60% for best overall results.

                    Tom, I'll stick to my numbers for now, having reverse engineered the original X motor using the S&S method. Still a CRAZY number, 23%! I guess I will just have to live with the fact that they were balanced adequately enough for the times. Regarding the engine mounting, Excelsior used a keystone frame setup through 1924. The Super X in 25 was a loop frame with unit construction, much stronger! There is a small top motor mount on each cylinder but it attaches to a thin walled tube with a 5/16" bolt, that if tightened very much will crush the tubing, so not a very effective mount there. That will certainly be beefed up on my restoration. The front engine mount is also the magneto stand as well as foot board lug mount, and has a sidecar mount right above it. Again, a poor design if using a sidecar because the forces of a sidecar attached will move the magneto all over, thereby changing the gear lash. That explains why just about every X magneto and idler gear you find today are worn from running tight! The rear of the engine is secured to 2 large loop plates which attach to the bottom of the seat post and a rear casting that carries the rear fork legs. In addition, these plates carry the rear foot board lugs. Sandwiched between these plates is the transmission which slides fore and aft to adjust the primary chain. So, in my opinion, the engine is not secured well in the frame. So, what does this mean when trying to determine a balance factor? I don't know if the motor is looser fore and aft, or up and down!

                    IMG_0389.jpgIMG_0391.jpg

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Gene!

                      I can only refer you back to other's comments about chassis vs factor in the VI discussions.
                      A low factor does not surprise me, but I would have suspected something in the 40% range similar to early '30s H-Ds.
                      The fore-and-aft support seem beefy enough, although that would suggest a higher factor, similar to Sport Scouts.

                      A very long stroke would enjoy a lower factor, but 23% is still half of what I would have guessed.

                      And my experience was similar to Kyle's, in that an enormous range of factors can run "smooth", as long as the assembly is true.
                      With 'modern' H-Ds balanced anywhere from 52 to 60%, I found factor to be more of a tuning tool, rather than anything to do with what the rider feels: They were all "smooth", but the low factors accelerated better, whereas the high factors cruised better.

                      I have lost all faith in S&S's revised theory.
                      After a couple of years experience with dynamic balancing, it became obvious to me that you want to fake as little of the assembly as possible.
                      With a complete assembly, the pin and roller weights drop out of the math.

                      It surprises me as well that your female rod nearly equal to the male.
                      Personally, I would have the assembled crank back on the stand for a re-check of the numbers, and then the math.

                      ....Cotten
                      AMCA #776
                      Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Gene, thanks for the S&S link. I've always used what I learned in the little balancing book I studied 25 years ago, and reviewed in virtual indian. Herr Elvenkemper did not discuss (from my memory) the variety of factors that koanes mentioned, i.e. rod angle, stroke, etc. What I do believe to be true (but not discussed) is that your wheels, being a little heavier and of larger diameter than would seem normal (to me) for 61 cu in with the stroke you mentioned, will still yield a more comfortable balance in operation than what we see on paper. That's why I like Cotten's suggestion to build what was originally engineered. You might find it satisfactory. ........ (easy for me to say, you're doing the work!)

                        If you are reasonably certain that your components will not balance (even with aluminum pistons) you will be looking for a retro-fit possibility, fun stuff.

                        Are taking problems to Fremont??

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                        • #13
                          We have to wonder where the heck!!
                          Ignatz Schwinn was known to be very competitive in racing, until he lost his favorite rider Bob Perry in 1919 (?).
                          It seems to me that low balance factors are for lower rpm engines, from the earlier days such as Gene's X. But the competition mechanics had to know a lot more than what we see. Where are zee broken flywheels? und zee broken rods?!!!
                          Where are zee dammed books?

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                          • #14
                            Fillibuster,

                            Yes, I can bring the problems to Fremont for sure. Not sure how much of the hardware I'll drag along though. However, maybe the extra weight in the back of the 2 wheel drive Ford will come in handy if I get to drive through another lovely Nebraska blizzard!

                            I appreciate all the input, good discussion here. I just for the life of me can't understand how the stock crank can be so out of balance, compared to what we're doing these days.

                            One thing I've been waiting for is some input from the early JD guys. Seems to me a 61" J Harley is similar in engine design. What are you guys doing?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I ain't doin' nothin' to my J On my '16J, I'm using H-D cast iron pistons, and original internals so I expect to have what Harley-Davidson deemed acceptable in 1916. Knowing your expectations, and probable road run use for the Excelsior, Gene, I would balance to improve a short-coming in that motor that you find irritating. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything profound, but in my experience, it is vibration at higher speeds that I find the most aggravating. I'm a total neophyte about balancing, but can dynamic balancing more accurately map where the sweet spot will be in RPM?
                              Eric Smith
                              AMCA #886

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