indian lower cylinder question

[jkjoller]

I'm in process of trying to restore my Indian 741. I'm a completely new to this so my questions may be considered ridiculous, but if I don't ask I won't learn!

My questions (pics enclosed for reference):
- If I didn't would it make a difference from a performance standpoint? And what is the best way to remove all the rust before repainting.
- For an Indian 741 what was the original color of the lower cylinders? I know the top ones were silver and I've seen pictures of other 741 where they are black.
- Is painting the cylinders something I can do...i.e. automotive spray paint? Or should it be professionally done?

Lastly, I've take apart the bike and I'm trying to do as much as I can (that's why I bought it in the first place...to have some fun). I've been using my grinder with a wire brush attachment to clean rust of various parts. Is this the most efficient and correct way to do this? And if so, once they are clean of rust, should they be coated, painted, etc?

Any and all advice is appreciated as I'm sure I'm asking a lot of dumba$$ questions.

Thanks, Jeff

[pisten-bully]

Jeff, not certain where you're located, but I think a great place to start with your questions could be an AMCA meet. Go, find a 741 owner or three and fire away with the questions! Pick their brains and peruse their bikes... you'll likely get all fired up to go home and work on your own bike!

[jkjoller]

Thanks Pisten Bulley.
I live in Dallas. I plan on attending the Arlington Swap Meet this weekend (hosted by the Cherokee Chapter). Hopefully find some good folks I can talk to. I joined the AMCA thinking that a lot of good info and advice would be provided. So far it's been few and far between. Maybe there are some Indian guys out there that want to help a new guy out....

[pisten-bully]

I joined the AMCA thinking that a lot of good info and advice would be provided. So far it's been few and far between. Maybe there are some Indian guys out there that want to help a new guy out....

Jeff, they're out there, but you're experiencing something that just is simply part of the Indian experience I think.... while there's plenty of Indian knowledge in this club, getting answers on the AMCA Forum for Indian questions takes a little more patience! I'd say keep asking and don't worry if nobody answers... eventually someone will find your question and offer the advice.... or not! And, maybe the 741 is a hard one to get information on? I know little about the 741, except that it's basically a military, detuned version of the last Sport Scout. Based on that I'd say your cylinders definitely need to be black, and the heads unpainted. Depending on the state of your motor (engine out, cylinders off for work?) you could media blast them to remove the rust. But wire brushing will work, too, except it will require a lot more effort and you won't get in between the fins very far. And then to paint... there are a few discussions on here about painting cylinders, but if you rattle can it with high heat paint that would be the easiest. Also, much depends on the level of restoration you're going for. If you're going "all out" you'll need some guidance on what's correct and what's not correct. The 741 is unfortunately not covered in Jerry Hatfield's Indian Restoration Guide and I don't know of any other written source.... but that doesn't mean there isn't one!

I'd say... good luck and keep asking!

[T. Cotten]

Jeff!

The 741 cylinders and heads on my bench are "flash" nickel.

That's more like a "pickle" nickel, and not polished or reflective.

I have yet to encounter a modern process that replicates it authentically.

Good luck,

....Cotten

[exeric]

Harry always has good advice, and talking to owners of 741's would be the best way to get practical information. Jerry Hatfield has done the most for collecting Indian knowledge and his books are invaluable. His book "Indian Motorcycle Pictorial History" has a great picture on page 184 of an unrestored 741. There is a close-up of the motor and you can see that the base of the cylinders is nickel plated, and the cooling fins are painted black. Indian nickel plated their cylinders into the mid 40s but I don't think I would go to the trouble of getting them plated. If it was my 741, I would paint the whole cylinder with a good high heat flat black like VHT, or another name brand aerosol high heat spray paint. Before you paint, you should get them as clean as you can, and wire brush the rust off. Better yet would be to get them sand blasted. If you do sand blast, make sure the cylinder bores, valve seats, and gasket surfaces are well taped up. The nice thing about spray painted cylinders is; you can always touch them up when they get nasty. The cylinder heads are aluminum and they should be glass beaded. If you can't find anyone to do that, get some cheap oven cleaner at a Dollar Store and see if that will cut through the crap, and grime. You don't want to leave that stuff on too long, and you should be ready to wash it off in a bucket with Tide detergent. Don't breath that stuff either.

As for finishing the rest of the bike; I would search this site, and a few others (i.e. CAIMAG, etc.) as you will find excellent pictorials on what other people have done with the same challenges you have. Personally, I like an aggressive wire brush in a grinder for rust removal. It's nasty work but it's cheap, and if it's just surface rust, the wire brush is much less destructive than sand blasting. I subscribe to the hands on school of restoration. The more you do yourself, the more pride, knowledge, satisfaction you will get. I'm also a cheapskate.

Just keep asking questions Jeff. People love to spout off what they know, and you can pick and choose what you think will work.

[exeric]

Jeff!

The 741 cylinders and heads on my bench are "flash" nickel.

....Cotten

I didn't know the 741 heads were nickeled. . . We all learn new things.

[sirhrmechanic]

Hi Jeff:

You are in the right place and lots of folks above have given you a good start.

For rust removal, Eric is right. It's hard to beat media blasting. If you visit Harbor Freight tools (online) they even sell a small bench-top blast cabinet that will work fine off a house-sized 110V compressor.

One thing to keep in mind with wire brushes is that the rust is much tougher than the soft wire on a wire brush. So when you wire brush rust, it looks like you are removing it, but really you are 'plating' it with a thin layer of steel wiped off the wire brush. Then it will rust bloom again in no time... under your paint. If you can't media blast something large like the frame (and you should be able to find a local media blaster all over dallas... tons of people down there doing it... including our new favorite CO2 blasting. Uses dry ice as a media, which sublimates and leaves only a tiny bit of debris.) Anyway, if you can't find a media blaster, best bet for rust will be a good single cut draw file and naval jelly. File the worst of it off and use naval jelly. File won't get into the pits but work in the naval jelly (available at any hardware store) into the pits with hand wire brush. It's not ideal... not as good as media blasting. But better than just wire brushing rust.

If you can find a copy of the book, many years ago Easyrider Publications put out a fantastic little book called "Half-Priced Harley" which was a restoration guide for DIY vintage bike restoration. To this day, it has some of the best advice I ever saw for restoration -- including car restoration. This little book is a gem. Out of print and getting hard to find, it was the book that got me started down the slippery slope to restoration back in the 1980's. There is another great book, but dated, called The Restoration Of Veteran and Thoroughbred Cars (or similar) printed in England during the 1960's. It sold millions of copies. Every "dad" got one and headed off to restore an old car back in the heyday of the hobby. Copies are everywhere, including on my favorite used book site ABE Books.com. I can't remember the author, but search on the title and it will come up. They are on eBay too. This book is well worth reading. A bit dated in some ways, but many of the techniques are not only timeless, but were written at a time when the craftsmen who performed them when the cars (bikes) were new were still alive and helping in the hobby. It's a book that should be on every vintage car/bike lovers shelf.

And don't hesitate to ask. No stupid questions here and everyone will bend over backwards to help with your 741 and to get you up to speed on your project. And I can say as a (new) Indian owner ('38 Chief/last fall) the Indian guys like Harry have been more than accommodating as I try and fumble my way from Harley-dom into the Big Wigwam. So Welcome aboard!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[denismccarthy]

Hey Jeff

I'm not up-to-speed on the Indian 741 but would like to learn more about that model. Can you post up a few pictures of your project? I'll do a quick Google search to see what the bike looks like.. And like the other guys where saying I would highly recommend media blasting the rust and old finish off your parts. You really need to get down to the base metal to get a good picture as to the condition of things under all of the ****. In regards to the plating, let me know if you need a good source for plating services. Ronnie Brown of Brown's Plating in Kentucky is great. I've used them for several years now.. And again, like the other guys are saying, one of the best things you can do is attend as many meets as possible. There are always lots of people who are willing to help you with your project. I've had folks from all over the world that were willing to take the time and help me with my latest restoration. This is a great place to start! Good luck and let us know if we can help you with something.

Take care

Denis

[T. Cotten]

Denis!

Attached are some nickel photos, and I apologize for an error in my previous post.
(The site format prevents any edits from my Compaq, but allows it for my Gateway!)

The large cylinder and aluminum head must be 741?
And the smaller nickeled head and cylinder must be Junior, I imagine. I don't even remember how I ended up with them.

"Not up to speed" says you already know the bottom line about the 741.

That's why most of the great 741 information on the web has been devoted to hop-ups.
Not only are improvements mandated by its own under-built design, its distribution worldwide by the USA's WW2 "Lend-Lease" programs eventually supplied fodder for serious competition programs in Europe, New Zealand, Oz, etc.

With today's real-life USA traffic requirements, "hop-ups" become a prudent safety issue; Perhaps not so much where mopeds (or golf carts) are predominant, however...


....Cotten

PS: If anyone attending Davenport can economically assist with transport of such heavy hardware to Denmark, please let me know. I owe much to a friend.