Removing valve guides from Indian Chief Motor

[sirhrmechanic]

After more than 2 hours... I got 1 of the four valve guides out of the cases of my '38 Chief.

Finally between heat and a home-made puller I got one to move. But after that, it would not budge.

Then used a carbide mill to cut off the top and then used the same carbide end mill to elongate the bore hole almost to the wall. Then used another home-made puller to take the last piece out. And THEY didn't want to budge. I did put one score in the bore in the casing, but I can dress that out with a pin hone and it won't affect how the new guides go in.

But does anyone have an easier method? Or are these always a bear? They definitely need to come out. Bores are just rusted/pitted beyond all hope. Protecting the cases are the first priority, of course!

Thanks in advance for any ideas. I'll have the rest out tomorrow and will take some pictures. Even if I have to do all four the same way. First one is always the worst. But maybe I am overlooking something simple.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[c.o.]

I'm more of an assembler than a builder but I believe the guides are a pressed fit and should be pressed or drifted out. I recall manuals mentioning a "double diameter drift".

[indianut]

untitled.JPGThere are 2 good methods. First put the cams and cam cover back on. Then put an old pushrod in without the screw and use a small 3 jaw puller with the tip in the pushrod. Second I have made a little Jack for this. Picture 2 pieces of 1/2" alum with a "U" cut out of them. Thread 2 holes 5/16 in the ends of the 'Top Plate' put the 'Bottom Plate' against the case and the top plate, with the threaded holes, under the "Pushrod Guide" and jack it out with the screws. Use a propane torch to warm the area around each one as you go. I assume you are removing them to Cad Plate them, as the pushrods are made in O/S so you can just hone the existing guides. I can't take a pic right now and I am not a computer person, so don't laugh at me CRUDE paint drawing of my Jack! You will get the idea!

[sirhrmechanic]

Hi Indianut.

Thanks... that confirms about what I thought. That they will come out hard!

Removing them to replace completely. I'll get new units from Greers. This motor sat on a barn floor for decades. Anything ferrous on it is beyond hope except the flywheel, con rods and pinion gear. Everything else is just too pitted to hone out. I debated sleeving the existing guides with bronze sleeves, but the exteriors are so pitted as to just look terrible. I think Greers gets $55 each for brand new pushrod housings/guides. I doubt I can plate them for that. I know I can't sleeve them for that!

Your tool looks good! I'll post pictures later today of how I got them out.

Cheers and thanks very much for the input!!! I've never done an Indian motor before... so am trying not to break anything!

Sirhr

[sirhrmechanic]

Hi Indianut.

Thanks... that confirms about what I thought. That they will come out hard!

Removing them to replace completely. I'll get new units from Greers. This motor sat on a barn floor for decades. Anything ferrous on it is beyond hope except the flywheel, con rods and pinion gear. Everything else is just too pitted to hone out. I debated sleeving the existing guides with bronze sleeves, but the exteriors are so pitted as to just look terrible. I think Greers gets $55 each for brand new pushrod housings/guides. I doubt I can plate them for that. I know I can't sleeve them for that!

Your tool looks good! I'll post pictures later today of how I got them out.

Cheers and thanks very much for the input!!! I've never done an Indian motor before... so am trying not to break anything!

Sirhr

[tfburke3]

I havent read the overhaul manual in awhile,but I believe the recommendation for removing tappet guides, races,bushings from case is to heat in an oven to 300-350f,for uniform heating.(maybe 250-300,dont recall exact)
dont use propane torch.I am sure it has been done,but the heat is concentrated and too high,and you dont now what the temp is.
Tom

[sirhrmechanic]

Hi Guys:

Thanks for the input. Got them out. Needed to make a dedicated puller, but it worked like a charm. Used some bronze and threaded rod. But the threaded rod was not strong enough, so got some hardened allen heads and they were perfect. Took a lot of force to get them out! Also did use a torch, but not a little plumbers torch. Used a large propane with a lazy flame to heat a large area of the case. Oven would be better, but I don't have one in the shop!

Here's some pictures of how I did it:

tappet 1.jpg
Using the mill to cut the head off the pushrod guide. The only reason to do this is because I wanted a puller that put all the force on the machined flat of the casing. If I went over the top of the head, it would 'miss' the casing on one side and would end up canted when nuts were tightened


tappet 3.jpg

Using a torch with a lazy flame to warm case until too hot to touch. Oven would be better if one is available!


tappet 4.jpg

Puller in place on the cases ready to tighten. With a warm case, some good lubricant on the threads and lots of pull on the wrenches, the 'stubs' came right out.

tappet 2.jpg

This is the puller. There is a cast iron guide on the inside of the cam chest, the puller body and a top steel piece to add strength to the top of the puller. Made it in about an hour on the lathe. You can see the 'stub' of the tappet.

Thanks all for the advice and the earlier puller posted looks like just the ticket if the pushrod guides are salvagable. Unfortunately, these were scrap.

At this point, everything is apart... cases are cleaned and ready for reasembly. Time to start putting a parts order together, I guess. I'll post some pictures of the cases before/after.

Cheers,

Sihrr

[sirhrmechanic]

tappet 4a.jpg

tappet 4b.jpg

tappet 5.jpg

tappet 6.jpg


Cases before and after... Not polished, just cleaned so that all the original sand casting details (and flaws) are completely preserved. A lot of hand work here... beads leave an artificial finish in my opinion and I hate to have bead in contact with any surface that will eventually come in contact with motor oil.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[indianut]

Nice job. An oven is great for installing press fit items, but almost impossible when removing! Especially on multiple parts like these. Tell us how you cleaned the cases please!

[sirhrmechanic]

Case cleaning...

No real science to this... just a lot of experience doing aluminum crankcases at the shop.

Starts with immersion in a Safety Kleen Agitator tank overnight. Very caustic stuff. This will clean a lot of the surface crud, but will also etch yellow metal. Won't destroy it, but you want to make sure that any 'cosmetic' brass/bronze/german silver pieces are off or protected. Cases come out pretty oil-free, but a lot of staining remains behind. So does the oxidation 'powder' if there was any to begin with.

After immersion, parts go into the regular safety kleen tank where I go at it with Red Scotchbrite pads, stainless steel toothbrushes and 0000 steel wool. The red Scotchbrite really gets the staining off w.out hurting the sand casting finish. This is a LONG process. Several times during the process, I'll take the cases out, wash them in hot water and Dawn and see where more work is needed. Then back at it. Keep the parts washer fluid always flowing to wash away dirt and act as a lubricant.

The stainless toothbrushes will leave microscratches on the cases. But these will come back out with Scotchbrite and steel wool. But the brushes are brilliant for getting into pitted and oxidized areas and really 'scouring' out any of the white oxidation powder. I used 3 toothbrushes to do this... they do wear out.

Once cases are 'almost' done, I work all the gasket and mating surfaces on a flat plate with 320 - 400 grit. Or use paper on a ground flat block to remove any burrs, etc.

Back to safety kleen tank. By now, scotchbrite pads are getting dull and ratty. This is good as it lessens the 'harshness' of the scouring. Last cleaning should remove any trace of dirt from every crevice and corner. Should also try and get off the worst of the staining with the scotchbrite and toothbrush before it finishes in the safety clean.

Once it's been washed again in very hot water and dish soap, I polish the whole thing with a paste polish like Muthas (or Simichrome or whatever is lying around). If you use a toothbrush (plastic bristles) to apply the polish it will get the polish right into the sand casting and burnish all the hard-to-reach areas. The polish will 'darken' the casting as it cleans/polished, but this darkness will burnish out with a clean cloth when you remove the polish. The 'burnished' finish is what I try and achieve while maintaining all the sand roughness and all the little individual details of the casting.

The downside... this takes hours! These cases could probably be beaded in under an hour. But to do it by hand, I have 8 or 9 hours hand cleaning the halves and the cam cover. When doing something big like a Silver Ghost crankcase, this could easily be 40+ hours... Because this is 'fun' for me, not client work, I was happy to spend a ton of time on this set... but to get this level of finish is costly if you are paying someone to do it.

Personally I don't like the 'blasted grey' finish that glass bead leaves. And I don't like the porosity and un-natural finish beading leaves behind, either. Some people do... and it seems to be a popular way to finish things. Sometimes you can get around that 'look' with walnut or plastic media. But I just find any abrasive-blasted finish un-natural and the porosity makes it a pain to keep clean!

My main reason for hand work is that it is almost (almost... not totally) impossible to get bead out of alumimum castings. It gets in the damndest places, especially into threaded (blind) holes and into areas of porosity, etc. And if glass gets into motor oil... badness.

On this motor, I did bead connecting rods and flywheels. And did major Safety Kleen then hot water washing after to remove all traces of glass. But I generally try and avoid using bead on any surface that will come in contact with motor oil! Just that these rods/flywheels were so rusted that bead was necessary.

Nothing magic... Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[jim d]

When looking over this old thread there was mention of using a oven to heat the cases to a even temperature when performing certain operations. I use a old Farberware Turbo Convection Oven. They are big enough for a lot of cases, heads ect. But it is small enough to set on the counter and light enough to move. They can be found on craigslist or Ebay for about $20 -$100. You can spot them by there metal case with a wood grain finish and a glass door.
Jim D.

[T. Cotten]

Jim D!

My bench oven had a glass door until an associate decided to warm up a rattle can of paint. Now its tin but still works.

Two smaller toaster ovens are dedicated to the welding bench and lab room, but its my heatlamp that sees daily use. Infra-red thermometers are indispensible.

....Cotten

[Frankenstein]

thanks for the tips about the benchtop ovens! Another good excuse to go yard sailing.:-) Totally agree about the infrared thermometers, I'm a lot more confident in taking heat to Aluminum now that I use one.
DL