oil control rings on total loss oil systems, use em or not?

[Tom Lovejoy]

I was talking with a friend, we have heard both versions. Just curious what you guys have used - what worked and maybe what did'nt? I pulled the cylinders on a 20's scout, back cylinder had an oil control ring - front cylinder did not. Wondering what the guys with more ridding experience have found out and or recommend? Appreciate your thought's.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Tom, it's hard enough finding original motors to strip down and find what was the original set-up. The 1930-36 Harley VLs seem to have had three compression rings on the front cylinder and maybe two and an oil ring on the back. We are now all using modern repro pistons with oil rings and thinner compression rings, so can't easily replace the front oil ring with a compression ring. In addition, most engines have now had the baffles under the cylinders removed, often deliberately. Despite this the bikes still seem to run fine. I note the Harley small twins contemporary with the VL has different baffles and breathing system. Also that Harley did not change the baffles for a couple of years after going to recirculating oil, then also switched the front and rear rods, suggesting the bikes will run many ways.

[RPjr]

Tom, I have been using a one piece oil rings, with out the expansion spring underneath, I have alot of miles this way and it works just fine [25 + years on a 36 HD VH]

[MeanGene]

What is commonly referred to in a modern ringset as a second compression ring actually functions more as an oil scraper ring- and many have a tapered face with the large end of the taper on the downside of the ring. In a wet-sump high-pressure oil system where there is a large quantity of oil sprayed around, the extra oil control is needed. With a dry sump, and especially with a low-pressure system and open bearings, there isn't that much oil to control in the first place. On the race cars we usually use a low-tension oil ring, along with windage trays and scrapers to keep the oil in the pan, and it works fine, as the second ring is actually scraping most of the oil down already

[Tom Lovejoy]

Right on guys, thanks for the info.

[gharper]

I have been running late model T slot aluminum pistons with 3 compression and one oil control ring in my 24 chief for 22 years. I have about 10,000 miles and it runs great! The oil pump is turned way down because it uses very little oil. The only issue I have is that the small amount of oil in the crankcase gets pretty nasty. I change it out every time I gas up on a road run. Even then, it looks like it came out of a 2 stroke Detroit diesel engine! So, I say run oil rings and change oil often!

Gene Harper

[Tom Lovejoy]

Very interesting Gene, thanks for the good advice.

[Indiantim]

Hi Tom,

I removed the oil rings from some new Mahle pistons I used in my 28 Indian 101. With the rings too much oil built up in the crankcase and the bike overheated. Now it runs really well and uses about 1 quart per 150 miles which is apparently perfect for this type of oiling system.

My theory is like a 2 stroke, total loss oiling needs to consume oil, I have also heard of some people using 2 stoke oil in vintage machines. I use monograde 50 weight. Done about 5000 miles and all seems good.

[Randy STL]

I would like to continue the oil rings vs. no oil ring discussion from SteveAdventure’s post “What Causes Piston Slap &/or galled cylinders?”

Fred Lange and SlowJo used oil control rings in there cannonball ’10 bikes and tear down showed the motors to be in good condition.

It appears from the discussions and evidence that both methods are acceptable.

I would like to move the discussion toward what OTHER adjustments have been made with each technique, and what their tear down evidence showed. Please also indicate the approximate miles on your setup.

When using oil control rings it is necessary to slow down the oil feed rate as to not build up to much oil in the sump. Possible drain the sump more frequently due the small amount of oil getting dirtier faster. Some folks may be running a wider ring gap to let a smaller amount of oil past the rings “total loss light”, or adding some 2 stroke oil to the gas to aid in top end lubrication. Are there ring materials or compression ring profiles to avoid to keep the system from being too efficient at removing all the oil. Anything else?

When not using oil control rings, depending on the type of oil used, there can be more carbon buildup in the top end which is abrasive and cause wear issues. Have the no oil ring folks found that to control buildup they have switched to a specific oil? Tommo posted that he uses Mobile BB re-circulating oil with no additives. Camsaure posed that he uses Aeroshell aircraft oil for 40 years with good results.
Specifically we only care about oil being used in total loss air cooled motors and the effects of carbon build up (no offense but it isn’t going to help us to know what you use in your Panhead). Anything else?

I didn’t build my ’26 JD motor and didn’t know what the piston/ring set up was so, I just removed my cylinders for an inspection. I guessing that I have approx 500 miles on the motor. It has Comp Dist aluminum pistons with a one piece oil ring. There is a light coating of carbon on the tops of the pistons and my girlfriend riding behind me at night says I’m smoking (not noticeable during the day), so some oil is getting to the top end.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience,
Randy Hassler
#68 2012 Cannonball

[Slojo]

I used modern CP pistons with oil control rings in the 2010 Cannonball Ghost, 1914 HD twin. The 2010 Cannonball piston to cylinder clearance was per CP's factory specs. This caused for piston to cylinder seizure several times. How the motor lived I don't know, but it ran well like that. I disassembled it for inspection (about 5000 miles) the piston skirts were scorched yet the rings were nearly perfect.

The oil dripper (dry sump) was calibrated to about two to four drops per minute and the bike run hard all day. 300 miles would equal about 8 ounces of oil consumption. A portion of the eight ounces would be all over the bike at each gas stop. This year changes are in process to control the excess oil and redirect it too the front of the primary chain as a 14 racer or a 15 and later H.D..

I find it best to prohibit motor oil from entering the combustion chamber and run a little two stroke oil in the fuel tank for top end lubrication.

joe

[fillibuster]

I used modern CP pistons with oil control rings in the 2010 Cannonball Ghost, 1914 HD twin. The 2010 Cannonball piston to cylinder clearance was per CP's factory specs. This caused for piston to cylinder seizure several times. How the motor lived I don't know, but it ran well like that. I disassembled it for inspection (about 5000 miles) the piston skirts were scorched yet the rings were nearly perfect.

The oil dripper (dry sump) was calibrated to about two to four drops per minute and the bike run hard all day. 300 miles would equal about 8 ounces of oil consumption. A portion of the eight ounces would be all over the bike at each gas stop. This year changes are in process to control the excess oil and redirect it too the front of the primary chain as a 14 racer or a 15 and later H.D..

I find it best to prohibit motor oil from entering the combustion chamber and run a little two stroke oil in the fuel tank for top end lubrication.

joe

I'd like to ditto slow-jow (good on 'im!) if he's a good sport!!
Carbon on the top of the cyl gets swept by the rings, but builds up above the top rings travel, and chews off the edge of the piston. More oil there, and you get more carbon buildup. Many times my top ends have been good except for the chewed-off pistons. Manuals have said to remove heads and scrape every 2500 miles. Guess I just can't count that far.
I don't like 3-piece rings; seems like they can cause too much drag, or are too demanding of my attention when shortening the expander. Sleeves sure didn't like them, so I didn't either.

[fillibuster]

Hi Tom,

I removed the oil rings from some new Mahle pistons I used in my 28 Indian 101. With the rings too much oil built up in the crankcase and the bike overheated. Now it runs really well and uses about 1 quart per 150 miles which is apparently perfect for this type of oiling system.

My theory is like a 2 stroke, total loss oiling needs to consume oil, I have also heard of some people using 2 stoke oil in vintage machines. I use monograde 50 weight. Done about 5000 miles and all seems good.

Tim please explain the overheat when oil builds up in the crank-case. (I always found the messy exterior too embarrassing to notice the heat.) Please explain what's happening here.

[harleytoprock]

Not Tim but I'll try and explain the too much oil in the crankcase problem. Imagine you trying to run through a pool of water. Its very fatigueing. Same thing happens in a motor when the crankcase is over filled. The flywheels and rods are working hard to get through the oil. Because of this, the motor runs hotter like if you were towing a house. With this condition, much power is robbed from the motor. The end result can cause seizure but not from a lack of lube but from the over heating. With the excessive heat, the pistons can expand greater in diameter than the bore diameter or the pistons can melt. Not good.

[gharper]

Sljo,

I agree! Run oil control rings, turn the oil feed down, change oil often and add 2 stroke oil to the fuel.

I hear the argument that these old engines need the oil in th upper end to lube properly, I say B.S! The only thing engine oil does in the combustion chamber is burn, and that leaves carbon deposits and makes smoke. So, 2 stroke oil in th gas will lube the intake valve at least, maybe more and burn cleaner, very little carbon deposit.

My 24 Chief had about 7500 miles when I pulled it down, only because I had some intake leakes and damaged the valves a bit. The bore was good, just lightly honed it and used the original pistons with new rings, piston clearance was about .001-.002 above whare they were set years ago. I'm pretty confident thatif not for the intake leak problems, I could have run it longer. It smokes a bit now, mostly on decelleration because it needs intake guides, which I never replaced!

Gene Harper