Proper Headlamp?

[felthamw]

Bear with me. I am confused and I beleive that there are quite a few more people out there just as confused as I am.

I have had the wrong headlamp in my bike ('55 FLH) last three judging meets.

#1) I unknowingly at that time had a #67717-48B "T-3" bulb in it. I was told it incorrect as it was for '60 - '64 model years. I accept that according to Palmer's book.

#2) I found a headlamp that I certainly thought was correct. It has "GUIDE" written horizontally across the middle of the lense, "Made in USA" at the top in a semi-circular fashion, "TOP" just below that, "CYCLE BEAM" boldly written horizontally across the bottom above "SEALED"-also horizontal.
This headlamp looks to have a small bulb with the hi/lo filaments inside that small bulb that is permanently bonded/manufactured with the headlamp assembly. This headlamp was judged as incorrect and the judling sheet claims that the "T-3" should be there instead...... huh?

#3) Same headlamp same result with same explanation. Again, "T-3" is correct for '55?

Palmer's book states that the '49 - '59 Hydra-Glide type headlamp (#67717-48) is correct and defined as "simply having GUIDE written in the middle of the glass lense and either CYCLE 3 BEAM or CYCLE BEAM 3 writen across the bottom of the lense. I am losing it here. I have NEVER SEEN ONE OF THESE! I have looked, beleive you me.

Somebody told me at Eustis that the headlamp I was using during attempt #2 and #3 was for '49 ONLY if it had a silver backed reflector - which it did. That just adds to my confusion.

Oh yes, another source of confusion: anybody ever seen a 67717-48A headlamp? Seems they skipped a revision letter or maybe it was short-lived and became obsolete quickly.

In conclusion: Is there anybody out there who can clearly speak with conviction and accuracy as to exactly what headlamp I am supposed to have? I want to move on!

This forum has been great for me in the past to get over these minor hurdles.

Thanks in advance.
Wayne #4329

[bmh]

Most of the low mileage 49-54 original paint machines I have looked at have this one. Sorry, I don't pay much attention to the 55 and later pans. I was told they would only hit you 1/4 point for a T-3 bulb as they are wear items like tires.

[Perry Ruiter]

In conclusion: Is there anybody out there who can clearly speak with conviction and accuracy as to exactly what headlamp I am supposed to have?

Wayne - I don't know about conviction and accuracy but I'll try to speak clearly and back up what I say with factory information. There will be some opinion, conjecture and reading between the lines so I'll leave it to you to decide on the conviction and accuracy bit.

Let's start with the opinion - in my opinion the first judge was right and the next two were wrong.

Now, what do the parts books say? The 57 parts book (sorry don't have a 55 book) says -48 is the headlight bulb used from 49->57. The 61 parts book (don't have a 58, 59 or 60 one) says -48B is used 49->61. So, while -48B was called out as a replacement all the way back to 49 once it was introduced it was never originally fit. Next (photo one) is a scan of a bulb chart from a 1959 factory service manual (this lists the mystery -48A bulb) and the 1960 supplement to the same (which now lists -48B in its stead). So given this factory documentation I conclude judge 1 and Palmer are right, the -48B (T3) bulb (see photo two) is 60 and up and not correct for any earlier bike. Photo three shows a -48 bulb (it isn't a T3). The fourth photo shows you a SEALED 3 BEAM bulb. Notice the 3 is very small.

Now for the conjecture - the -48 bulb is basically a Cycleray bulb in a sealed beam housing. Palmer says this pulls 35 watts on both high and low beam. Low beam got an improvement over the 21 watts the Cycleray drew but that was probably all the factory thought the old three brush generator could handle (there were admonishments in rider's handbooks, etc. against using an automotive bulb because the generator couldn't handle them (photo five)). The generator stayed essentially the same until 58. In 58 with the new two brush generator and regulator the factory got all excited and fit the -48A bulb which the chart says pulls 50 and 40 watts. Evidently, even with a much improved generator, that proved too much and it was dialed back to 40 and 35 watts with the -48B bulb ... Perry

[felthamw]

Thank you for your time, Brian and Perry.

Brian, that headlamp pic you posted is the headlamp type I have had on the bike the last two times judged. And, you are correct about the 1/4 point. It has been a 1/4 point for every variation tried at multiple meets. The "T-3" lamp version designation must have been acceptable in the #2 and #3 meet judging criteria if the "acceptable wear part" replacement scheme was used and that is why both judging sheets say "T-3".

Perry, I think that I can grasp the "A" vs "B" revision theory and it does make sense when considering the generator changes in 1958. From your attached pictures, I can see that the headlamp and box with the number -48 is what I have in my bike and have had for the past two judgings. We have determined that the glass lense markings have either CYCLE BEAM (-48) or CYCLE 3 BEAM or CYCLE BEAM 3 (-48A?) written at the bottom. You posted a pic of a CYCLE 3 BEAM lamp that shows that there really are some out there. So, to wrap it up - '49 up thru '57 used the -48 version. The '58 and '59 used the -48A version. The '60 to '64 version was a -48B T-3 type. That does roughly match what Palmer actually says (reading between these blurred lines and excepting his CYCLE 3 BEAM or CYCLE BEAM 3 statement).

That says I have the right one and have had the right one.....................................

I guess I could always just throw a "T-3" into it next time it judges and claim the "wear part" issue but........this has driven me nuts since day one and I am going to chalk it up to me being anal. Again. But, I want it right.

Thanks guys
Wayne #4329

[Perry Ruiter]

We have determined that the glass lense markings have either CYCLE BEAM (-48) or CYCLE 3 BEAM or CYCLE BEAM 3 (-48A?) written at the bottom. You posted a pic of a CYCLE 3 BEAM lamp that shows that there really are some out there.

Wayne - the CYCLE 3 BEAM photo is from the -48 headlight pictured beside it. Interestingly tho it's in an AMF era package! Maybe that has something to do with it? I'm not a Sportster guy but I do have a 57 and a 59 Sportster parts book. The 57 book lists the -48 bulb for 52->57. The 59 book lists -48A as replacing -48 for 52->58 (59 uses a different headlight with a -59 bulb). So it certainly seems that the introduction of the -48A bulb coincides with the arrival of the model 58 generator ... Perry

[Chris Haynes]

All rigid frame Panheads used the metal backed headlamp and air cooled spark plugs. These are things judges often miss.

[felthamw]

Ah, the plot thickens....

Wayne - the CYCLE 3 BEAM photo is from the -48 headlight pictured beside it. Interestingly tho it's in an AMF era package! Maybe that has something to do with it? I'm not a Sportster guy but I do have a 57 and a 59 Sportster parts book. The 57 book lists the -48 bulb for 52->57. The 59 book lists -48A as replacing -48 for 52->58 (59 uses a different headlight with a -59 bulb). So it certainly seems that the introduction of the -48A bulb coincides with the arrival of the model 58 generator ... Perry

Perry,
My theory just flew out the window (if I am to beleive that AMF packaging). If your close up pic showing the CYCLE 3 BEAM lettering is the -48 headlamp, it just doesn't jive. That is actually the first evidence I have seen that there even is a CYCLE 3 BEAM lamp in existence. Using this line of thinking, that would mean that the CYCLE BEAM lettered lamp is the -48A. Brian said that the lamp pictured in his post (like the one in my bike) is what he has seen on low mileage, original paint '49 - '54's. That just doesn't match the 1959 factory service manual description callout of using the -48A higher wattage lamp.

I personally like the '49 - '57 uses a -48 CYCLE BEAM lettered lamp, the '58 - '59 uses a -48A CYCLE 3 BEAM lettered lamp and the '60 - '64 uses a -48B T-3 lamp idea much better. It makes better sense to me due to the '58 generator upgrade allowing a higher wattage lamp that is very difficult to find (it was very shortlived) maybe because it wasn't backward compatible with a three brush generator and caused them problems.

All rigid frame Panheads used the metal backed headlamp and air cooled spark plugs. These are things judges often miss.

Chris,
This CYCLE BEAM lettered headlamp I have (like the one Brian posted) is metal backed. Perry's picture of the CYCLE 3 BEAM lettered headlamp is metal backed and Perry's picture of the T-3 sure looks to be glass backed. The only way a judge could know if it was metal or glass backed is the lettering or the T-3 marking.


I appreciate all of you chiming in on this but it is still as clear as mud to me. I think I will just have to do what the last two judge teams said and find a T-3 and put it in there so I can get that 1/4 point. It's just not right and I know it. Points are points though................
I still think I have the right one!

Oh, and I do have the air-cooled spark plugs. (Show only)

Maybe, just maybe someone has definitive proof or a plausible explanation. Otherwise, its like the Twilight Zone.......

Thanks again,
Wayne #4329

[Chris Haynes]

Chris,
This CYCLE BEAM lettered headlamp I have (like the one Brian posted) is metal backed. Perry's picture of the CYCLE 3 BEAM lettered headlamp is metal backed and Perry's picture of the T-3 sure looks to be glass backed. The only way a judge could know if it was metal or glass backed is the lettering or the T-3 marking.

Thanks again,
Wayne #4329

Wayne,
It is very easy to tell the difference from the front. The metal backed bulbs have a glass covered bulb inside of them. The look of them is very different. A lot of things like headlamp bulbs, spark plugs are either overlooked by judges or ignored.
On an unrestored machine newer headlamp bulbs and spark plugs are allowable as they are "Service Items" that are regularly changed during the life of a machine. A restored machine must have the original parts. But on the other hand an unrestored machine must have all original parts while a restored machine can have reproductions. Are you thoroughly confused now?

[felthamw]

Wayne,
It is very easy to tell the difference from the front. The metal backed bulbs have a glass covered bulb inside of them. The look of them is very different. A lot of things like headlamp bulbs, spark plugs are either overlooked by judges or ignored.
On an unrestored machine newer headlamp bulbs and spark plugs are allowable as they are "Service Items" that are regularly changed during the life of a machine. A restored machine must have the original parts. But on the other hand an unrestored machine must have all original parts while a restored machine can have reproductions. Are you thoroughly confused now?

Chris!
VERY CONFUSED!!!
I had a steel backed, bulb within a bulb lamp in the bike for the last two meets. Both times the judging sheet came back with "T-3" on it. That is just plain not right. A T-3 is the #67717-48B glass backed lamp used for '60 - '64. And for them to suggest using the T-3 under the "acceptable available wear part" clause (or whatever they term it) is wrong too. My bike is restored.

I just wish someone out there in this forum knew as much or MORE than those judging teams and could clear this up. Is my '55 supposed to have a steel backed lamp that has CYCLE BEAM written on the lens or is my '55 supposed to have a steel backed lamp that has either CYCLE 3 BEAM or CYCLE BEAM 3 wriiten on the lens? Next question would bewhich one is the -48 and which one is the -48A?

Seeing as I have all the wattage specs for all three -48, -48A and -48B lamps, I should go out and get my ohmmeter and my old college electronics book to see if I can further define what I have. Ah huh! That's actually not a bad idea....

Later,
Wayne #4329

[felthamw]

Seeing as I have all the wattage specs for all three -48, -48A and -48B lamps, I should go out and get my ohmmeter and my old college electronics book to see if I can further define what I have. Ah huh! That's actually not a bad idea....

OK, that didn't pan out. I only read .3 ohm each filament (approx) and when I applied it to the formula when the voltage is known and the resistance is known, I get gobbledy ****.

So.... back to the question(s).

#67717-48 is for '49 thru '58 and it says "CYCLE BEAM" on the lense?

#67717-48A is for '59 and '60 and says "CYCLE 3 BEAM" or "CYCLE BEAM 3" on the lens?

No question, the #67717-48B is for '60 thru '64 and says "T-3". NOT for a '55.

I hate like hell to have to buy a T-3 headlight for the next meet when I know it is wrong for my bike solely to satisfy two sets of judges "remembrances". What the heck am I supposed to do? There are not any concrete answers coming back on this and there is no documentation to support the judge's decisions.
I am going from "confused" to "disallusioned" quickly. Time is escaping me. I am still hoping on that "older than me" old timer that will personally remember some of this confusion way back when.

Thank you for your support in the past (sincerely).
Wayne #4329

[bmh]

I hate like hell to have to buy a T-3 headlight for the next meet when I know it is wrong for my bike solely to satisfy two sets of judges "remembrances". What the heck am I supposed to do?

That's what makes this game challenging. If any one could take a recipe and recreate an old bike , what fun would it be?

Time is escaping me. I am still hoping on that "older than me" old timer that will personally remember some of this confusion way back when.

That's part of the problem you are already having, to many faded and fuzzy memories and not enough proof and documentation.

[Perry Ruiter]

#67717-48A is for '59 and '60 and says "CYCLE 3 BEAM" or "CYCLE BEAM 3" on the lens?

I fail to see how you ame to this conclusion from the discussion above. I explicitly said the CYCLE 3 BEAM bulb came from a -48 box.

What the heck am I supposed to do?

Ask the chief judge for your points back. Between Palmers and the discussion here I think you have adequate backing that the T3 is not correct for your 55 ... Perry

[felthamw]

I explicitly said the CYCLE 3 BEAM bulb came from a -48 box.

I was "fishin", Perry. I still am. I was hoping for one more collaberation or a denial.

I am not doubting that you took it out of the box. I just distrust anything AMF.

But from what I have seen, the CYCLE 3 BEAM and CYCLE BEAM 3 lamps are the rarer ones, hence I figured they were more likely the -48A version.

Every lamp I see on eBay or on the rare, old '52 and '53 original paint, unmolested bikes I have personally seen in person is a Cycle Beam. (Could they have been replaced at some point? Sure.)

Either way, I have to have one or the other and not the T-3 - on this we all agree.

Anybody know of anyone that has a CYCLE 3 BEAM for sale?

Thank you very much.
Wayne #4329

[Robert Luland]

Wayne let’s face it. The bulb is a consumable. Just the same way you change oil. I’ll give ya 99% that those bulbs were changed at one time or another and if the newer style was the one the parts counter had at that time. Well? Bob L

[Chris Haynes]

Service parts are allowable on unrestored machines. Restored machines must have all correct parts.
On the other hand unrestored bikes can have no reproduction parts while restored bikes can.