47 indian generator and cutout issues

[glasscat]

OK, Ive read any post I can find on the matter and I'm still confused. Took the 47 Chief out for it's maiden ride and all went well until the third stop. Came back to a dead battery. Electrics are not my strong suit so if your good enough to respond, please use very simple terms. So. I'm now tring to figure out why. I put a new harness, switch and battery on because the previuos mechanic had them cobbled up. It had been sitting for some time. I am assuming that I was running total loss and finally used up the new battery, the only thing that could have drained it would have been the brake light and it shows no sign of sticking, the keys were in pocket, barring a temporary short as when the bike got home, I charged the battery and it fired right back up.
Question 1. The cutout switch has power at all times, ignition on or off. Just went over several schematics and it would appear thats what should be going on all though it seem wrong to me. The diagrams all show the "gen" lead and the battery lead, via the amp meter, connected. The "gen" lead is going to the forward terminal of the cutout relay. There is nothing on the backside terminal.
Is this correct and if you have the time, can someone explain how this works. The cutout remains open with power from the battery.
2. If I closed the cutout, the generator starts to "motor" in the correct direction so I assume, again, not my strong siut, that the genny is at least in some sort of working order.
3. I'm going to have the genny gone thru and will probably due away with the third brush and get a splitdorf procuct in the near future but I would rather get whats there working correctly before I screw up an expensive new set up.
4. If there are other recommended checks, can some please explain how to perform them. I checked voltage at the battery, 6.25 both off and running at idle or a fast idle. Took the cover off the genny and saw no frayed wires that would shourt out buit i should probably do a better inspection. I also have a new belt and never heard any squeels on the ride. If it helps, put about 45 miled in before it went dead.
I'd also like to thank any and all for any help given in advance, these baords are SOOO whorth the cost of admission.

[T. Cotten]

I'm clueless, about such things, Glasscat!

That's why I depend upon IndianFrank@yahoo.com

He doesn't haunt the forums, so please post him with your questions directly.

You may blame me if you wish,

....Cotten

[sirhrmechanic]

Just a couple of diagnostic things to try...

With ignition on (bike not running) how much draw is coming off the battery? You can use ammeter to read it. It should only be a tiny bit to energize the coil.

With ignition off and everything off... is there a draw coming off the battery? If there is anything coming off, you have a short somewhere.

Both those checks should rule out a short.

Next, has the generator been bench tested?

Remember that a three brush generator (at least the car ones I tend to have to deal with) takes power IN to the third brush to energize it. No power in, no power out. So if the third brush is not getting power, the generator is just basically freewheeling. Three brush generators are highly reliable if in proper working order and wired in right. They aren't always.

The generator trying to 'motor' with the cutout closed is a good sign. Can you run the bike on a rear stand, though, and check whether the cutout is closing in operation? It's not always easy to tell. If you can close the cutout points while the bike is running and get a different output on your ammeter (you can use a Fluke Meter/multimeter) then your problem may be cutout.

Just some diagnosis thoughts. Like Cotton, I am really bad with electricity. But sometimes have to diagnose the problems so as to know what to send out to fix... His suggestion to e-mail Indian Frank is probably the best advice you can follow!

That said, don't discount old dynamos and cutouts, etc. as problematic. If they didn't work well back in the day, Indian wouldn't have used them. Riders back then expected reliable machines and Indian made reliable machines. So there is nothing inherently wrong with the original systems when set up right and when wired in right. That old gear is way more reliable than a lot of modern solid state stuff and alternators, etc.

Cheers,

Sirhr

P.S. One last thought... you mentioned a maiden ride. So was the generator recently rebuilt? Sometimes a generator has to be polarized after rebuild. Means hooking it up to a power source (battery) and 'sparking' it momentarily. You can look up how it's done online. It's straightforward. BUT not sure that polarizing applies to three brush generators or just to more modern two-brush units. I know a lot of 1960's two-brush gens require polarizing. I don't know about the three brush. Look before you leap. But if not polarized, a generator won't give you any output. Again, check w. someone who is better with electrons than I...

[glasscat]

Thanks for the shout outs. On the questions, and again, not my best subject, the genny has some miles on it, I'm fairly sure it wouldn't motor unless it was polarized. The bike has sat for a month or two while other issues were worked out with an occasional trip around the block as the various issues were addressed and I never had a dead battery so I don't think it's a short unless it was temporary and I see no sign of anything that would indicate that. I'll check the draw to be sure with the ignition on to be sure but as stated, I rode a fairly good distance before it went dead. I'll also check the cutout while running. Part of my question should be, what causes the cutout to close? If the wire on the cutout is always hot as stated then I ASSume the genny actually producing power causes it to close which makes sense because if the wire was the trigger and switched, then the genny would motor as soon as the ignition is turned on. Maybe some one could explain a bench test for the cutout. I didn't see any in previous posts. As for the reliability of a genny, I would agree but the upgrade to an actual regulator makes good sense to me. I like to ride and the idea of having to stop and move the third brush if I need lights or having a battery acid etch the bike doesn't sound too good. It's pretty ugly right now but if I get all the mechanicals sorted this summer then I'll pretty it up this winter. I'm collecting pop bottles and mowing yards now to save up for a four speed, LOL. All this also brings back an old memory, when I was very young I had a Yamaha endoro 175, about a 72 or so. In my minds eye I remember it had an electric start but no starter motor. I think they just energized the stator or alternater or what ever it had. Makes me woulder why you couldn't do the same here with the genny, maybe a compression release would get the motor spinning. (If nothing else, that comment may get an electric guru to chime in!!)

[littlejohn]

Hi Glasscat. I had a similar charging problem on my friends 48 Chief a few months ago. I'm an electronics tech, so guess who got volunteered to fix it? Anyway, from what you've written it's clear to me that your generator is not charging your battery, or providing current for the rest of your bike. The voltage on your battery should increase from 6.25 volts to between 6.5 to 8 volts when you rev the bike.
Your battery is getting "used up" by your ignition system when the bike is running. Closed points will normally draw about 4 amps from your battery when the ignition switch is in the "on" position. You can see this on your ammeter when you turn on the ignition switch and the points are closed.

The electrical current flow path is: positive battery terminal -> wire -> ammeter terminal 1 -> through ammeter wire -> ammeter terminal 2 -> ignition switch "ammeter" terminal (on the 1940 diagram this is the next terminal anticlockwise from "off" terminal) -> through switch internal connection -> ignition switch "coil" terminal (on the 1940 diagram this is the "L" terminal) -> wire -> "positive" terminal of coil -> primary winding of coil -> "negative" terminal of coil -> wire -> distributor terminal -> one side of points -> other side of points -> frame -> negative battery terminal.

The electrical path from from the generator back to the battery should be: wire from generator -> "gen" terminal of cutout relay -> cutout relay wiring (series and shunt) -> cutout relay points -> "batt" terminal of cutout relay -> wire -> ignition switch "gen" terminal (on the 1940 diagram this is the "I" terminal) -> wire -> ammeter terminal 2 -> through ammeter wire -> ammeter terminal 2 ->wire -> positive battery terminal.

Hope this helps, littlejohn.

[glasscat]

Thanks LJ, It helps some, I'll recheck the wiring on the ignition switch to see if I goofed there. I have several wiring diagrams but none are absolutely correct for this bike and they are all small and not real clear on the print out. I assume when they show the wire going to the genny, they really mean the cutout. None of them show another wire for the other terminal of the cutout, Is this correct?If I am reading this right, that woukd mean the wire from the cutout to the ign. switch is always hot on or off. Agian, not my best subject, but it would seem to me that if the cutout relay wire to the ign switch is controlled by the switch, then if you turn the ing switch on, the genny would start to motor if that is what cauese the cutout to close. Can you clarify this and maybe give me a "bench test" to see if the relay is bad. Surley there is a way to take it off and apply power somewhere and see if it closes. I still can't get my head wrapped around what causes the cutout to close, At this point I am assuming it has something to do with the genny producing power and giving the cutout a "green light " to close and start running and charging the system. As soon as I am confident that there isn't another issue in the wiring I'm going to send the genny out for an overhaul, loose the thrid brush and add a splidorf regulator, while not "correct", that appears to be the best solution for long term ridabilty. I'm never going to win an award with a 48 motor in a 47 frame but I could have a chance on the most miles ridin if ya get my drift.

[littlejohn]

2014-04-25 09.58.09.jpg2014-04-25 09.59.21.jpg2014-04-25 10.50.38.jpg2014-04-25 10.54.23.jpg2014-04-25 10.59.30.jpgHi Glasscat.
I'll if I can explain it in layman's terms and not get too technical. I'll try to answer your questions in the order you put them.
"when they show the wire going to the genny, they really mean the cutout" Yes that's correct. If you take a careful look at the attached 1946 wiring diagram, you will see that that there is a cutout relay shown inside the generator drawing and that this is where the wire is going to. This wire attaches to the "batt" terminal of the cutout relay. They do not show the wire coming out of the generator to the cutout relay. This wire attaches to the other terminal on the cutout relay. It's sometimes marked with an "A".
"If I am reading this right, that woukd mean the wire from the cutout to the ign. switch is always hot on or off." That is correct. This is how the 1946 wiring diagram says to do it. It won't be a problem unless the points get stuck in the cutout relay. If they do stuck a huge amount of current will be drawn through your wiring harness, through the cutout relay points and through the generator brushes/armature. This will probably burn out your wiring harness. To prevent this, make sure you have a 20 or 30 amp fuse connected in series on the wire coming directly from the positive of the battery, even before it goes to the ammeter.

"it would seem to me that if the cutout relay wire to the ign switch is controlled by the switch, then if you turn the ing switch on, the genny would start to motor if that is what cauese the cutout to close" The genny starts to motor when you close the cutout relay points because you are now providing a path for current to flow from the positive terminal of the battery, through the cutout relay points, through the genny's field coils, to the negative terminal of the battery. The current in the field coils induce a magnetic field into the poles of the generator (the big lumps of metal that you use to attached the field coils to the generator body) which then induce a magnetic field in the armature windings, making the armature spin. Note that if there was no residual magnetism in the poles, the armature would not spin. In your the genny is polarised correctly, because the armature spins, and the whole genny is probably ok. Note also that the genny motoring is only a test to see if the genny is ok. It not what causes current to be generated so that it can be delivered to you battery to recharge it.

So how does the genny system work? In real simple terms this is what happens. When you start the bike the armature (the thing on the middle of the genny) rotates. The armature has some current in it which has been magnetically induced by the metal poles. As the armature rotates it induces more current into the field coils which are wrapped around the poles. This increases the magnetism in the poles, which in turn induce more current into the armature winding, which then induce more current in the filed coils, again increasing the magnetism in the poles, which then induces more current into the armature windings. The effect snowballs so that eventually the voltage being generated in the genny is larger than the battery voltage. When this happens the points in the cutout relay close so that current can be delivered from the generator to the battery to charge it up. I'm not sure what makes the points open again. I know there is a "series" and "shunt" current in the windings of the cutout relay and that this current causes a magnetic field which pulls the points closed. I guess that as current is drawn through the "series" path to the battery it weakens the magnetic field in the windings of the cutout relay, causing the points to open. This cycle repeats itself over and over again i.e. points closed, points open points closed etc as the magnetic field in the cutout relay windings change. Note that if the points gap is wider it takes more magnetism to close the points, so the points will be open for longer than if the points gap was smaller. This means that the "average" voltage at the "batt" terminal of the cutout relay i.e. the voltage presented to the battery for charging will be smaller if the points gap is wider. So what does that mean to us vintage bike riders? It means that if your battery is boiling over you should increase the points gap in your cutout relay! This will lower the voltage being presented to your battery for charging from the generator. I think that is only part of the story as the 3rd brush also comes into play.

So what should the points gap be on the cutout relay? According to the Q&A book they should have a gap of 0.018" to 0.025" when the gap between the magnetic core and armature is set to 0.022". To accomplish this you need to put a 0.022" feeler gauge between the magnetic core and armature of the cutout relay, then bend the points (on the "batt" terminal side) so that the points gap is between 0.018" and 0.022". See attached photos.

How do you adjust the 3rd brush? To increase current output shift the 3rd brush in the direction of armature rotation (i.e. towards the negative brush). Move in opposite direction to reduce current.

From the discussion above I'm thinking that if your generator does not deliver enough current (5 to 8 amps) you should close the cutout relay points gap (from 0.022" to 0.018") to increase the voltage presented by the generator to the battery for charging.

[littlejohn]

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[glasscat]

LittleJohn, Please go straight to the supply room and get TWO gold stars for your report card. I now understand how the cutout functions and will be able to fix the problem. In short, the batt terminl is hot all the time to keep the points open and the A terminal also goes hot when the genny is producing and with the larger coil it overides the small batt coil, closes and completes the circuit for a charge. Both circuits ground through the body of the cutout to the genny and then the mount and frame. I also did a reach out to IndianFrank per cotten, if I get a reply, I will post it here as well for all others to use. In my e-amil to him, I asked if he knew of a bench test for the cutout using a meter or power but I suspect at this point mine is not working correctly. I think I'll reinstall it, pull the battery lead and power up the A terminal and see if it closes. I did put a circuit breaker in line as repairs have been made. A little silicone and it's stuck to the top of the foe battery box out of site. If we ever cross paths, a beverage of your choice or two is on me!!! Thanks agian

[littlejohn]

Glad to help. But take off that circuit breaker and throw it away. I had one on my 44 Chief. After a few months riding it fell apart and shorted out onto the battery box. Scared the hell out of me. Luckily I had some side cutters in my saddlebag so I could cut the wire from the battery to the remainder of the circuit breaker. Like I said, throw away the circuit breaker and replace it with an in line fuse holder and a 20 amp fuse. Just sayiing...

[glasscat]

Scary stuff! It may also cause the debate team to arrive in this thread. In trying to get my head wrapped aroung the cutout, it never occurred to me that it had two coil circuits in it but as soon as you made me aware, it all makes sense. I'm sure this post will be of use to alot of other riders in the future as I never saw one that explained it like you did. I'll post my results as well to aid others.

[kval]

47 indian generator and cutout issues

littlejohn
now could you explain how a 2 stage voltage regulator works for us not electrically knowledgeable

[hairynob24]

glasscat do not get in a drinking session with littlejohn ,you will lose,i know this...Rob

[c.o.]

Wow... it was like a light came on. Thanks for the tutorial littlejohn.

[littlejohn]

"littlejohn
now could you explain how a 2 stage voltage regulator works for us not electrically knowledgeable

Kevin Valentine 13
EX-Chief Judge"

Kevin.
It's been a while since I played around with the 2 stage regulator, so I don't want to make any comments or explanations just yet. I've got a 2 stage reg. in the shed so I might have a play over the next few weeks to make sure what I'm saying actually works in practice, ok? I do seem to remember that I had to remove the field coils from their earth nut when swapping from a cutout relay to a 2 stage reg. And that the 2 stage reg. is basically the cutout relay with an additiona; voltage regulator added. You still have to use the 3rd brush to regulate current, or go to a 3 stage regulator (the 3rd stage regulates the current instead of the 3rd brush).

In the meantime, I've read through all of the electrical posts and learnt a lot! A genny outputting 8.5 volts had a bad earth! Placing a thick earth strap from the negative terminal of the battery to the genny body brought the voltage down to 7.5 volts. That never occurred to me, as I always use an earth strap as described as a matter of course on my bikes.
And it just occurred to me (after reading the posts) that if your genny is putting out too much voltage (e.g. 8.5V) and boiling the battery, then you need to slow down the generator by changing the pulley ratios on your bike (i.e. engine pulley to genny pulley ratio).
Our sidevalves rev to about 3,500 to 4,000 revs, so adjust your pulley size accordingly. If you increase the size of the pulley on the genny then it will rotate slower and generate less voltage (is that right? or the other way round). I guess you want to aim for around 7 to 7.5 volts when the motor is being revved i.e normal riding conditions. I guess there's only so much a mechanical regulator can do if the genny is running too fast due to incorrect pulley ratios. I've rotated a working autolite 6V genny using a drill an was able to 10V out of it.