rust and penetrating oils

[BoschZEV]

Is there anybody else on this forum that has never heard of a common spring?

I've heard of lots of things, including springs, but a microscope showed that my razor blades didn't fail because they were sprung springs that were able to unsprung themselves.

[T. Cotten]

BoschZev wrote: "There is simply no physical mechanism that would allow for this so it wouldn't even be worth doing this experiment to demonstrate that you are wrong."

Is there anybody else on this forum that has never heard of a common spring?
Anyone with a vintage motorcycle that does not use any?

Thanks in advance,

....Cotten

[T. Cotten]

Filibuster!

Files are commonly sharpened by blasting with ALOX, or etching with muriatic acid.

Or both if it is a useful bastard.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

Then, instead of discarding the blade, set it aside for six weeks or so.
Most of you will be open-minded enough to find that indeed, it has a new "lease on life",
The metal has "memory".
(No pyramid required.)

There is simply no physical mechanism that would allow for this so it wouldn't even be worth doing this experiment to demonstrate that you are wrong. Except it took less time to do the measurements than it's going to take to type this post.

I carry Gillette Mach 3 in my traveling shaving kit. These blades come in a plastic case with 6 slots and 5 cartridges, with old cartridges dropped into an empty slot as the next new one is retrieved. Because on average I only use this razor a couple of times/month it is a long time between cartridges. However, last summer I spent a long time overseas so I know the most recent old cartridge has been there since July, while the oldest one is at least several years old. They've had plenty of time to "heal" themselves, and it only took a few minutes to place these, and a new one, in my metallurgical microscope.

The new blade is sharp at the highest magnification of my Zeiss microscope, which resolves ~0.5 microns. Unfortunately, my microscope isn't open-minded enough to find the effect T. Cotten claims. The microscope simply reports exactly what it sees. The new blade is sharp at the highest magnification, while the two used blades are indistinguishable from each other with chips in their edges of many microns in size. These blades haven't gone bad because metal was somehow displaced, they've gone bad because metal is missing. In order to heal themselves it would require them to have a "memory" of where the metal used to be, and then for them to grow new metal there. Obviously, this is impossible.

There is an alternative explanation, but it would require assuming the steel in T. Cotten's razor blades is both less brittle and has a lower yield strength than in mine, and that his whiskers have become stronger than steel as a result of his years' of dumpster diving. But, absent evidence to the contrary, I'm going with the simpler explanation, i.e. that he has fooled himself when reporting his old blades work better after sitting for a few months.

But, this nicely illustrates an important point relevant to this thread on penetrating oils. T. Cotten believes his razor blades heal themselves, and as a result he offers his personal observation that he gets a better shave from them after letting them rest a couple of months. Ricmoran believes CP90 works better than other penetrating oils to loosen fasteners, and as a result he offers his personal observation the stuff works despite not having any chemical in it that dissolves rust. The lesson to take from this is that where personal observation is contradicted by known science, you should go with the known science over personal testamonials.

[fillibuster]

Filibuster!

As he was a blacksmith, I'm certain John Deere took tempering and the springy-ness of metals seriously. He probably had many insights that were taken for granted, and lost to modern technology.

File teeth are not flexible blades.
The fine edge of a razor dulls first by rolling and bending, not wear.
That's why strops were important, as they were an effective means of bringing the edge back to straight.
Modern high-quality blades spring back to a degree quite naturally, given enough time.

Not only are stress-relieved motorcycle frames imbued with "memory", allowing straightening while cold, but cast iron cylinders stretch and distort under the pressures of combustion. The piston "hydraulically" expands the bore as it passes like a mouse in the belly of a snake.
It the metal did not move, it would shatter.
And the bores stay stretched, but slowy creep back while out of duty.
I have measured torque-plated and power-honed cylinders creep back a quarter of a thou after six months.

A motor is "tighter" in the spring than when it was put away in the fall.

....Cotten
PS: Didn't the John Deere Company produce a motorcycle at one time?

.(...I do know that there was one implement that John Deere would never stand behind.

))

I would not advise standing behind a manure spreader, but they built them anyway.

Interesting on the razors, Cotten, but what about those files? We do use files (a lot), don't we?
I've seen them immersed in water for sharpening, but was never taught what is happening there.

[T. Cotten]

Filibuster!

As he was a blacksmith, I'm certain John Deere took tempering and the springy-ness of metals seriously. He probably had many insights that were taken for granted, and lost to modern technology.

File teeth are not flexible blades.
The fine edge of a razor dulls first by rolling and bending, not wear.
That's why strops were important, as they were an effective means of bringing the edge back to straight.
Modern high-quality blades spring back to a degree quite naturally, given enough time.

Not only are stress-relieved motorcycle frames imbued with "memory", allowing straightening while cold, but cast iron cylinders stretch and distort under the pressures of combustion. The piston "hydraulically" expands the bore as it passes like a mouse in the belly of a snake.
It the metal did not move, it would shatter.
And the bores stay stretched, but slowy creep back while out of duty.
I have measured torque-plated and power-honed cylinders creep back a quarter of a thou after six months.

A motor is "tighter" in the spring than when it was put away in the fall.

....Cotten
PS: Didn't the John Deere Company produce a motorcycle at one time?
I do know that there was one implement that John Deere would never stand behind.

[fillibuster]

The price of quality blades is no laughing matter either, Folks!

I invite the frugal (who shave) to try this simple experiment:
Use a blade as long as you can, until discomfort becomes apparent.
Then, instead of discarding the blade, set it aside for six weeks or so.
Return to it after the next blade (or two) has also reached its limit.

Most of you will be open-minded enough to find that indeed, it has a new "lease on life", although never as long as its first, of course.
The higher the quality of the blade, the more this phenomenon displays itself.

The metal has "memory".
(No pyramid required.)

....Cotten

I wonder if John Deere ever figured that one out with his plow blades. ... Cotten, really?
although, file-sharpening could be considered an appropriate subject, and perhaps a similar (to razors) characteristic is at play.
I'm all "ears" to your comments, no slights intended. ...... if I want slights I'll summon up sarge, maybe.

[T. Cotten]

The price of quality blades is no laughing matter either, Folks!

I invite the frugal (who shave) to try this simple experiment:
Use a blade as long as you can, until discomfort becomes apparent.
Then, instead of discarding the blade, set it aside for six weeks or so.
Return to it after the next blade (or two) has also reached its limit.

Most of you will be open-minded enough to find that indeed, it has a new "lease on life", although never as long as its first, of course.
The higher the quality of the blade, the more this phenomenon displays itself.

The metal has "memory".
(No pyramid required.)

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

your crippling lack of a sense of humour.

A dull razor blade is no laughing matter...

[T. Cotten]

BoschZev!

Please forgive me for exposing your crippling lack of a sense of humour.
I was callous and crude.

But the phenomenon of razor blades regaining sharpness is real, and has real applications in the vintage motorcycle industry.

No joke.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

If all irreproduceable results are to be discarded, why is one prominent scientific journal called "Journal of Irreproduceable Results"?

It's a scientific journal in the same ironic way as 'Mad Magazine' is a news magazine. Scientists enjoy humor, too, which is why that "journal" exists.

You're not going to bite upon how razor blades spontaneously sharpen themselves?

Nope. I don't want to be responsible for triggering a discussion of pyramids, energy vortices, UFOs, radiation from cell phones, or mystical substances like CP90...

[T. Cotten]

BoschZev!

If all irreproduceable results are to be discarded, why is one prominent scientific journal called "Journal of Irreproduceable Results"?

(I thought it was funny at first, too.)

You're not going to bite upon how razor blades spontaneously sharpen themselves?

Anybody?

I guess I'm out of step without a beard.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

I thought pure Science started with observation, for which most of us would include practical experience.

Absolutely. But, an essential aspect is it has to be reproducible. If it isn't reproducible, then there are "hidden variables" involved in the phenomenon that you haven't understood as yet. Further, and very important, once a phenomenon has been observed and completely understood (such as how to dissolve iron oxide without attacking the underlieing iron) subsequent people don't have to waste their time repeating experiments. Instead, they can and should spend their time building on the base of scientific knowledge. That's how and why scientific knowledge advances.

Is chemically desolving rust always desireable?
Most of my requests are to conserve as much of the hardware's authenticity as possible.
More than a few of my customer's have chided me for too much cleaning.

It's not always desireable, but it often is. The rusty patina on the outside of a gas tank of a 1910 Indian likely should be left in place (but stopped from advancing further, if at all possible), while the rust on the bolts that are keeping you from rebuilding a 1960 BSA engine likely should be removed. However, it should be removed in a way that only removes the rust and doesn't remove any of the metal. Thanks to chemicals like ones that are in Kroil, that is possible to do.

[T. Cotten]

Uhmmm,.. BoschZEV!

I thought pure Science started with observation, for which most of us would include practical experience.

As far as your mystical examples, it is only a contemporary short-coming of Science to explain them inadequately. Like "Pyramid Power" was credited with sharpening razor blades, they actually can and do regain sharpness, even though the pyramid fancy has nothing to do with it. But without the fancy, the phenomenon is ignored by the dogmatic, and common knowledge of the past lost to the following generations.

Is chemically desolving rust always desireable?
Most of my requests are to conserve as much of the hardware's authenticity as possible.
More than a few of my customer's have chided me for too much cleaning.

Thus I choose the most effective penetrating lubricant with the least chemical action, non-toxic, bio-degradeable, and.... "Period Correct"!

...Cotten
"There is nothing more un-scientific than a mind blinded by science"... Hoosed Datwun

PS: Filibuster!
Sadly, it ended up looking just like any other "restoration".

[fillibuster]

Bees'wax and a heatlamp worked on this, Folks.

....Cotten

Winner-winner, chicken dinner! What's it look like after treatment, Cotten? (that isn't after, is it?)

My vinegar didn't finish the job on the old wrenches. I had to cheat. Used heat.
But I got it.