rust and penetrating oils

[BoschZEV]

...simply discounting out of hand what was learned from pratical experience is foolish and short sighted.

Sorry, but that's just not true. The nice thing about understanding chemistry is that it allows claims about chemicals to be accurately evaluated without having to waste time and money. I haven't discounted anything out of hand, I've discounted it based on science.

There are people who make all sorts of claims that are countradicted by scientific knowledge (e.g. that dowsing rods find water, that oiji boards allow communication with the dead, that copper bracelets cure arthritis, that magnets in the shoes help circulation, etc.). Many of the people making these claims could be quite sincere about their beliefs, and may think they are validated by practical experience. However, despite this, discounting claims like these isn't discounting them out of hand, it's discounting them based on science. Sugar pills (placebos) certainly make some people feel better, but if I'm sick I want to be given pills that have been scientifically proven to cure whatever it is I have. It is neither foolish nor short sighted to avoid knowingly taking a placebo even though it might be endorsed by someone with "practical experience" with it and who mistakenly thinks it works better than a proper drug.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are other products on the market that work as well as Kroil, and possibily even better. If there is such a product, I would like to know about it because I definitely would use it instead of Kroil. However, knowledge of chemistry is sufficient to know not to spend my money on ones that contain only petroleum-based hydrocarbons, such as CP90. Chemistry tells us they will lubricate and protect against additional rust, but they won't dissolve rust that already has formed.

[T. Cotten]

Bees'wax and a heatlamp worked on this, Folks.

....Cotten

[ricmoran]

Fine BoschZEV, please.describe how pizza tastes or the color blue to a blind person. Bottom line is without testing your reaching into the bottom of a paper bag without retrieving anything that actually proves the differences of what not only these products do but also others that may work as well.

Regarding selling something to anyone, have not done that for some time now as I am out of the business. Simply providing information on a product that has provided success in aiding shop repair as well as preservation.

Anyone that wants the product gets it from the manufacturer and there is nothing in it for me. From experience, the best education comes ffrom those who provide insight to something where either success or failure from use happens. It then is up to an individual to decide for themselves and with that simply discounting out of hand what was learned from pratical experience is foolish and short sighted.

CarWell has been around a long time, with or without your business which is not my concern, they will continue producing a product that works.

[sirhrmechanic]

I prefer Occam's Razor.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[BoschZEV]

BTW, CarWell also is a proprietary product, where the formulation is held close.
... & added by me in this reply and with proprietary ingredients"[

I realize you sell the stuff, but that doesn't change the fact the MSDS says it is a proprietary mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons. Unlike Kroil, the MSDS does not say the CP90 has any proprietary ingredients at all, only that the mixture of hydrocarbons is proprietary. A film of hydrocarbons helps prevent rust from forming, but it doesn't dissolve rust that is already there.

Oh come on, don't be closed minded, where is the open mind? Yeah, I know, tried proven and it works for me so why bother?

The reason not to bother is the ingredients listed in the MSDS don't give me a reason to bother. If a chemical test shows a swimming pool needs chlorine and an acid salesman says to use his product instead, it would be a sign of foolishness, not an open mind, to use the acid.

[ricmoran]

I'm afraid that may be the only reason for trying it. If you look at the MSDS for Kroil, which we know actually does work, you will find it is roughly half petroleum hydrocarbons, but also 1-5% alcohols, 1-5% glycol, and 5-15% proprietary ingredients. However, CP-90 is only a "mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons."

There are two things an effective penetrating oil needs. One is low viscosity, to penetrate through the microcracks. However, whether those microcracks are filled with air or filled with low viscosity petroleum hydrocarbons, the fastener still will be just as frozen. So, the second thing needed is a "proprietary ingredient" that dissolves rust.

These work together. The further the solution penetrates, the more rust that is exposed to the ingredient that chemically attacks it, and the weaker the hold on the fastener. However, without an ingredient to attack the rust it doesn't matter how low the viscosity of the hydrocarbon is, because only once the fastener actually starts moving does the lubricant filling the microcracks help in any way.

I like spaghetti as well, but I'm sticking with Kroil. Because it actually works.

BTW, CarWell also is a proprietary product, where the formulation is held close.

From what you wrote: I'm afraid that may be the only reason for trying it. Oh come on, don't be closed minded, where is the open mind? Yeah, I know, tried proven and it works for me so why bother?

You wrote - If you look at the MSDS for Kroil, which we (I don't use it as you'll discover why if you read on) know actually does work, you will find it is roughly half petroleum hydrocarbons, but also 1-5% alcohols, 1-5% glycol, and 5-15% proprietary ingredients. However, CP-90 is only a "[B]mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons." & added by me in this reply and with proprietary ingredients"[/B]

Further, what you wrote of the "proprietary ingredient" that breaks rust, KROIL is not the only product out there with a formulation as Cp-90 has their proprietary ingredients as your now are aware of.

Further, review of hazards in KROIL I know I don't want it in my shop as I have too many VOC chemicals already. CarWell lists nothing in hazardous ingredients.

KROIL at 150° for flash point, you might as well use kerosene, auto trans fluid and maybe xylene or toluene.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with you using KROIL, but not for me.

After near 2 decades of having heard people who spin wrenches every day of the week who tried & then went on to continually use CarWell, their favorite words are "never seen anything like it"

Tonight is Lasagna!!

[BoschZEV]

I best liked the part about eating a plate of spaghetti!
If for no other reason, I'll try the CP-90...

I'm afraid that may be the only reason for trying it. If you look at the MSDS for Kroil, which we know actually does work, you will find it is roughly half petroleum hydrocarbons, but also 1-5% alcohols, 1-5% glycol, and 5-15% proprietary ingredients. However, CP-90 is only a "mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons."

There are two things an effective penetrating oil needs. One is low viscosity, to penetrate through the microcracks. However, whether those microcracks are filled with air or filled with low viscosity petroleum hydrocarbons, the fastener still will be just as frozen. So, the second thing needed is a "proprietary ingredient" that dissolves rust.

These work together. The further the solution penetrates, the more rust that is exposed to the ingredient that chemically attacks it, and the weaker the hold on the fastener. However, without an ingredient to attack the rust it doesn't matter how low the viscosity of the hydrocarbon is, because only once the fastener actually starts moving does the lubricant filling the microcracks help in any way.

I like spaghetti as well, but I'm sticking with Kroil. Because it actually works.

[billpedalino]

Ricmoran,

As an American of strong Queens, N.Y./ italian heritage, I best liked the part about eating a plate of spaghetti!

If for no other reason, I'll try the CP-90...

[fillibuster]

sirhr. i use an old vibrating football game. place the part in a bucket on top of the game. whenever i'm in the shop i just plug the game in and watch the bucket move around.

A couple of weeks ago the little mate told me she submerged an old rusted up pliers in WHITE VINEGAR. Next day she pulled them out, the rust was gone, and they worked freely. ..... Last week I finally tried for myself, a crescent wrench, and a similar adjustable wrench with the "magic word" on it, both subjects having been rusted or "frozen" long ago and had resisted my attempts at free-ing with vice grips on the knurled turn screw while tool was gripped in the vice. I submerged them in a peanut butter jar full of the vinegar I had intended to clean my coffee pot with. A day later, in front of 2 good friends as witnesses, I had them both freed up with only a little movement from the vice grip.

So next time you clean your coffee pot, save that stuff for something "frozen". And when you little mate tells you of an old woman's remedy, .. try it.

[rwm]

sirhr. i use an old vibrating football game. place the part in a bucket on top of the game. whenever i'm in the shop i just plug the game in and watch the bucket move around.

[T. Cotten]

There's a time and place for everything, Folks,..

And for most weather'd scroungings, I rely upon bees'wax from a toilet seal ring, and a low flame.

Must save the Kroil for the customers.

....Cotten

[rdillon]

Where can you buy a small quantity of the CP-90? I am in VA. Just did a quick search, no help. Thanks, Randy

[ricmoran]

CarWell CP-90. It's an ultra thin film inhibitor which penetrates rust and scale. The only failure encountered in use and selling the product over 20 years was a 10-32 stainless set screw that is used to hold the visor shields on aluminum traffic lights as well as cross walk assemblies where the hand lights up with timer.

I've had 1", 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" fasteners that were left in a 55 gallon drum, filled near the top, the drum filled with 4.5 pH rain water and sat over the years. The drum did not have drainage holes punched in it.

The drum sat in various wet filled stages in the tropical heat of day and cool beach side evenings.

The fasteners are used to put concrete forms together and another project was coming up where these were needed.

When we tried to get them to work straight from the drum, total failure as the assemblies were frozen in place and heavily scaled. Sprayed the drum from the top down twice then let it sit for a couple of days. The first 6" - 8" layer of fasteners in the drum came apart without issue, other than a vice and crescent wrench.

Surfaces where the product did not migrate to had to be treated, but all fasteners were used

Used on exhaust studs on my 89 Sportster. After 10 or 12 years of age and misuse with the bike, removing one exhaust stud had it break off in
the head. Treated the other studs to remove them as they all had been butchered over the years from several ex pipe change outs.

Treated the remaining three, then ate a plate of spaghetti and went back to work removing the remaining studs to replace them without a hitch.

The product migrates better than anything I've ever seen and we are advised this by several end users, including fed, state and county governments repair shops.

This product works well to refresh old paint machines without hurting the paint and parkerized parts love the bath with it.

This product can be painted over as well as body fillers stick to surfaces treated with it. of course, sensible surface prep is done prior, such as tack rag or prep solvent.

[sirhrmechanic]

BTW, we've been playing with a new method for extracting studs, etc. and so far it is working brilliantly. Still use penetrating oil, but we have set up a little vibrator on the end of the stud. (No, it's not pink)... it's basically a diode that runs at high frequency. Available off eBay for peanuts. The vibrator can sit for days as necessary. When we go to extract the studs, they come right out. The combination of penetrating oil and high-frequency vibration is amazing. More to follow. Right now, we've only used it a half-dozen times. But it is showing great promise.

If someone has more time to try it on a more 'scientific' level, input appreciated.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[Coolbreeze]

I have given up on Liquid Wrench. Instead of throwing it away, I found a new use: it makes a decent cutting oil when I am machining steel.