New on the Block! 1909 Indian single, Mag Timing question!!!!

[Bobster]

Hi Folks, Been looking to get an early Motocycle for several years and finally found one that suited my needs and price range. I ended up with a very nice 1909 Indian Single, 2 3/4 HP that was restored back in 1960 from a very original bike. My intent is to get it running again (been sitting for almost 20 years) and be sure it's sorted out, then re-restore it to new condition. My experience is with Brass era cars which I restore, show and tour.
Currently I'm disassembling some of the moving parts to get things free and lubricated. In doing so, I pulled the cover off the Mag timing gears and one of the gears was stuck to the cover. Now I have the issue of trying to get the gear back in correctly, however things have moved! I've now cleaned everything up and looked for the gear index marks of which there are many and can't be sure which are correct. So to this point I have used a dial indicator in the spark plug hole and have the piston at top dead center on compression stroke. So my question is, do I advance the timing (full advance) and set the Mag to fire at some measurement after top dead center or what? Thanks for any help!

[kitabel]

Full advance will probably be between 25 and 35 degrees before TDC, never after.

[Bobster]

Kitabel, thanks for the info! Just a little more info to be sure I'm clear. Yes I understand BTDC for sure. Would you simply use a degree wheel on the crankshaft to determine the advance and a light or ohm meter across the magneto points to determine the spark firing time? One major question I have, as I have always worked on the Brass era cars and had to be sure when the timing was fully retarded the crankshaft was just past top dead center so the hand crank had no chance of kicking back when starting the car. When I start this bike and I'm pedaling with the spark fully retarded and the compression relief engaged, then I start to advance the timing and gain compression, do I have to worry about the pedals kicking back? Is there an double check of the timing in the retarding position I should perform? Thanks again for any help!

[tfburke3]

Kitabel, thanks for the info! Just a little more info to be sure I'm clear. Yes I understand BTDC for sure. Would you simply use a degree wheel on the crankshaft to determine the advance and a light or ohm meter across the magneto points to determine the spark firing time? One major question I have, as I have always worked on the Brass era cars and had to be sure when the timing was fully retarded the crankshaft was just past top dead center so the hand crank had no chance of kicking back when starting the car. When I start this bike and I'm pedaling with the spark fully retarded and the compression relief engaged, then I start to advance the timing and gain compression, do I have to worry about the pedals kicking back? Is there an double check of the timing in the retarding position I should perform? Thanks again for any help!

I dont think a light or ohm meter will work for points opening indication.Visual will most likely get you close enough,or put a thin cigarette paper or something about .001 thickand rotate until it gets loose.
I use a magneto induction timer which has a buzzer and light .They used to be advertised in the club mag for $4o.
Tom

[Bobster]

Thanks for the advice, we'll see how it goes!

[exeric]

Generally on early bikes, you want to time the magneto at full advance, with the piston approximately 3/8" - 7/16" BTDC, and magneto points just about to break. Is your 1909 the early Diamond frame Indian, or the first year Loop frame?

[Bobster]

Thanks Eric, mine is a Loop Frame, 2 3/4 HP

[hairynob24]

love to see a photo of bike please

[Bobster]

Pic of the bike

Here’s a couple of pics of the bike.

[Shaky Jake]

Thanks for sharing the pictures. Beautiful machine you have. My experience is with later PowerPlus engines, but I agree with what Eric said, 3/8 to 7/16 inches BTDC with the spark control fully advanced.

The procedure I use on PowerPlus motors is as follows: Install all the timing gears except the idler gear that engages with the mag gear. Place the piston at 3/8 inches BTDC on the compression stroke, and set the mag so the points are just opening. Drop the idler gear in, ignoring the marks. If you can’t drop it in because the the gear teeth don’t line up, rotate the mag slightly in the direction of advancing the timing until they do. Re-check the timing afterwards, but this should get you into a workable range. To make finer adjustments you would need to re-key the mag gear, which you shouldn’t have to do.

Personally I like to use a buzz box to determine when the points are opening because it seems like I’m usually on my knees in a dark motel parking lot when I’m doing this, but I have done it successfully by just eyeballing the points. Good luck, hope to see a video.

Kevin Naser

[Bobster]

I thought I’d give you guys an update. I used a dial indicator to find TDC, then backed the piston back down the cylinder exactly 3/8” (.375 with the dial indicator), set the mag to full advance and adjusted the contact points to just breaking & inserted the idler gear. All went like clock work. Then to double check where I would be with full retarded timing, I position the piston back to TDC and found the points where just breaking ATDC. Now I know it won’t kick back when I’m trying to start it & should have plenty of advance. Thanks for the help!

[exeric]

A nit picking point, but you should always bring the piston up to 3/8" BTDC in the direction the motor will run. The reasoning is due to slop in the timing gears which could effect timing by a few degrees. However, single cylinder motors are very forgiving, and what's a few degrees between you and your motor

[Bobster]

Thanks for the reminder Eric, and yes, I did consider that in my adjustment. There was quite a bit of slop in the gear teeth as well as a bit in the shaft bushings. I lubed it all up well with an industrial grease made for that situation, it should operate quietly now.

[tfburke3]

If the cams and idler gear bushings have oil holes like later models I would put together with the oil your going to use in the motor.I would be concerned about grease clogging the oil holes.
Tom

[hairynob24]

Bobster thanks for the photos cool old bike for sure , Rob