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International Title Service worked flawlessly in Illinois.
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Do they have a website or phone number?
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It will be no protection at all if there is the slightest misconformity of your stamps.
"Title mill" papers are a red flag in Illinois, I assure you.
If you have any reservations about your stampings, don't attend any large meets!
....Cotten
(State Licensed in Illinois)Comment
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Title
Cotten-
Are the stamps you refer to the serial numbers on the left case top and both case bottoms? Or are they one of the stamps on the documents?Comment
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Rex!
I was referring to the VIN on the left motorcase, as that is what will be scrutinized in the event of a traffic stop, or general surveillance at a large gathering.
Illinois is currently suffering under a gubernatorial administration that has proven disregard for individual liberties. It may only be a matter of time before someone schemes to raise revenues with "safety inspections" or other bureaucratic ploys that will complicate our enjoyment of our machines, starting in the already over-regulated Chicago metro area.
Out-of-State title mills historically 'launder' bad machines through paperwork, with transparent promises of protection in the event of a claim. Those of you who feel that saving a few bucks is worth supporting these loophole businesses should remember that someday it might be your lost machine that is spontaneously re-titled in another state.
A solid papertrail is your best protection for your investment.
....CottenComment
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Title Service
Cotten,
Rewind to 1990. After several years of being offered "original and correct" motorcycles from the 1930s with G motors, disc brakes, etc. for original and correct prices, I decided to build a street legal machine inspired by the lean lines of the WR.
Since I refused to cut up a good complete machine to build a custom, I bought from my mechanic a rolling basket case 45 project, most of a Servicar, an empty motor, and various spare parts. I didn't want alot of it, but it was a will not separate deal.
I had been reading The Book of Palmer and other How To Build, How to Buy books for a few years previous, and was aware of the VIN number issue with all of its potential legal and resale value problems.
When I saw that the empty engine (which had served as an end table base for @20 years) was a 1937W, I checked the VIN for the following:
1. Font size-3/16" Top valley to bottom valley. 1/4" to to bottom.
2. Odd number year and odd serial number.
3. No evidence of welding, filing, etc.
4. Left and right bottom numbers matched each other but not the VIN.
Since the numbers were good, and I didn't want to have a Servicar motor in a cycle, I thought it would be worth the expense to have it built for the finished product.
The 1963 G motor that was in the bike ran and has a good title, so my effort to obtain a title for the 37W was not motivated by trying to save a few bucks. My motivation was to get a historically significant (1st year with recirculating oil) back in use and have as solid a paper trail as I could get given the current options. I paid the state sales tax, and presented all the paperwork required.
I can see how this system could be misused, and I think that with today's information technology a better system should be developed.
Are you saying that even though I have an official State of Illinois Title bearing my serial number tucked away in a safe deposit box there still may be reason for concern in the future?Comment
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Rex!
Your post is a little convoluted,...but if your VIN is un-altered, and you had properly obtained a title by due process, then my rant against title mills has no bearing upon your personal project.
My reply to your original post was only to alert everyone to these concerns that frankly, concern all motorcyclists.
From my experience, the State of Illinois is most forgiving of hapless enthusiasts who are not perpetrators. In fact, they have often bent over backwards to accomodate honest citizens who only wish to enjoy history.
However, I felt compelled to warn this Forum that cutting corners into the registration files by using a loophole title mill will not gain their confidence, nor sympathy.
Promoting loophole title mills rubs me the wrong way; Please do not take my rant personally, it is only intended to steer others to proper due process.
If you have ever lost a machine to a thief, you understand.
....CottenComment
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Cotten,
Sorry about the rub. Point taken.
RexComment
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Titles
Points well made guys. Hopefully those of us that use the mills are just trying to legalize an already legal machine. Case in point last year I picked up a wla mtr. still on the crate and sealed. Being brand new at this I had no idea of what I was getting into. Who ever heard of a mtr without a vin? So I join this club,the local chapter,buy Palmer,go to DMV and start talking to people. Forget DMV who wants a custom with state numbers. End up buying a basket from a very reputable person but again no title(I'm a slow learner) have a friend in the local police run the vin thru all 50 states and come up clean. So now after many months I have a title with the good numbers basket. Worst part is I'm no better off because I joined this club ,got the bug,and just can't make myself stamp that perfect WLA. Keep thinking I should sell it.Comment
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CHRIS,
Want to sell Ill buy :)Comment
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Chris!
Most HD Dealerships that have been in the business since the '40s have proper stamps, although they will not readily admit it to the general public.
With proper due process, (and probably a nominal charge by the Dealership), your cases can be legally stamped with an HD VIN,...
if you surrender a junk left case with a legit VIN.
(Those are not as rare as you might think.)
Please remember that most State authorities are serious public servants that only want to assist.
...CottenComment
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I think you will find that now most if not all Dealerships will not stamp cases they would incure way to much liability,the old dealer that did have stamps have long been gone! I do believe you will find these stamps in the hands of retired employees! My experance with the DMV hasbeen anything but nice,they will go over everything with a fine tooth comb,the trouble being there are more theifs than good doers out there.My advice is have your paperwork in order,dont just stamp anything unless you have an offical ok it is betterr to error on the side of caution than not
GOOD LUCKComment
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Just for clarity:
All stamping must be done under the auspices of the authorities, whether it is by a Dealership, or a replacement case sent back to the Factory with the surrender'd case.
It has been reported on another forum that the Factory is still replacing Shovel cases, so let us not overlook this legal option.
...CottenComment
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Thanks for the advice guys. Long ago carried my good(as in legalnumbers,title etc)left case to my dealer along with my wla mtr. and asked about stamping. That was fun since only one guy there was alive in the 40's and believed that spares had been made. I'd sure like to keep the original left case but there is always the option of using the numbered one and saving the blank for a bookend. Caught that offer from Inline so send me an "e" even tho I haven't given up yet.Comment
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Title Services
Gentlemen,
While I agree that a number of 'disreputable' individuals most likely use the title services for less-than-honest reasons, I believe that there is an honest and ethical need for those that are on the up and up. I live in New York, whare the N.Y. DMV is far less than helpful in these matters.
I have a set of XLCH cases with ORIGINAL, UNTOUCHED vin Numbers and matching belly numbers. As a former Harley mechanic who has been in this line for well over 30 years, I can assure you all that i know how to spot a re-stamp - even a weld-over in many instances. I purchased these cases with no registration, but with a Bill Of Sale from an out-of-state individual and plan to replicate my first motorcycle.
Finding a knowledgable spervisor at DMV is the fisrt challange, as this ia an 'ano,olous' procedure and most pocket bureaucrats do not adapt well to change. After doing so, my DMV's initital position was the vehicle must be registered as a 'Custom', thus meeting all 2006 vehicle requirements and with New York State frame Tag. Obviously Unacceptable. Next assertion was that without a piece of paper, original registration certificate (as a 1964) as impossible. Again - nonsense. Last go-around was that (according to the latest supervisor - they change each time I visit the DMV) the assembled vehicle would tbe brought to a designated location where it would be inspected and passed or not. It's still only frame, cylinders, heads, front fork and cases - can't do that. Besides, even if I could, what would happen if it didn't 'Pass' muster ?? That's acary thought !!
I know this can be done, as I know people who have acomplished this over the years, but the NY process seems to evolve in different directions each year. However, if I choose to continue this way it will be an arduous task and I'm suure that it will take months and months. Isn't it far easier and totally legal to employ the use of one of these services and 'bring the title into' New York ?? Maybe hire a (ulg...) lawyer to assist? Any N.Y. lawyers out there who may want to comment ??
Feedback is most welcome, as is any information concerning reputable title services that I may contact (I'm told that International is reputable).
Thanks,
Bill PedalinoComment
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