8 Valve board track on Ebay....

[c.o.]

Cory, there are good inside stories yet to be told, provided of course that a guy lives that long...

Does that mean we can expect another book?

I have faith that you have lots of life left in ya!!!

[Chris Haynes]

If they were NOS replacement cases I doubt they were numbered.

[rickychip]

that's r.l. Jones 8 valve. You can bet that it's right, and well done.

thanks eric --we put a lot of work into this bike---r.l.

[rickychip]

quoting the seller's description: "the cases for this bike came out of cunningham harley davidson in atlanta..."
and "reproduction items include a dealer's race frame that was made from my original dewey simmms race bike."
that ssounds an awful lot like an over-blown, over-the-top description filled with names dropped like raindrops to provide distractions to keep a potential buyer from realizing that what he's looking at is a carefully-groomed collection of parts that were never a bike in real time, the late 1920s. I mean, "cosmolene-packed" engine cases found in a dealership? I wonder what the numbers are. Repro frame?
Seller shows no vin, and makes no mention of it. I don't think r.l jones ever laid eyes on that particular assembly of parts. Do you recall just how do replica bikes like this appears to be fit under today's "competition bike" rules?

cases had original tag from cunninghams -if you study photos -you can tell these cases are new--serial no's are 27fhad540 and belly numbers are matching.i have club member that has original litrature copied from h.d. Archives that describes serial no;s on 8 valve harleys --they are no different than pocket valves --8 v was not in the serial no's --a couple of 2 cam cases were stamped 8v in california years ago and that is how that rumor started --i knew the guy that stamped them --"name dropping" was providing documented history of where these parts came from and to authenticate thier use .i owned dewey simms original board track racer -"highly documentated" -and this frame was used to carefully reproduce a dealer race frame--yes this was a highly groomed collection of parts and by telling where each of these parts came from does not provide any kind of distraction to the buyer --i am stating this is a collection of parts .i really dislike the connotation of these statements -over the top -overblown-i can document and back up every statement in this description -i doubt there are many bikes that have the hundreds of man hours it took to bring this bike back to life----we have had many poorly built -incorrect racing bikes brought into the amca and this has cast a shadow over some efforts to show examples of bikes built from almost all original components .as far as any controversy about this bike being judged -don't worry it won't happen--------------R.L. JONES

[bill campbell]

way to go R.L there's way to many arm chair experts on this post glad to see we finally got a real one, keep up the excellent work on bring old bikes back to life

[Sargehere]

cases had original tag from cunninghams -if you study photos -you can tell these cases are new--serial no's are 27fhad540 and belly numbers are matching.i have club member that has original litrature copied from h.d. Archives that describes serial no;s on 8 valve harleys --they are no different than pocket valves --8 v was not in the serial no's --a couple of 2 cam cases were stamped 8v in california years ago and that is how that rumor started --i knew the guy that stamped them --"name dropping" was providing documented history of where these parts came from and to authenticate thier use .i owned dewey simms original board track racer -"highly documentated" -and this frame was used to carefully reproduce a dealer race frame--yes this was a highly groomed collection of parts and by telling where each of these parts came from does not provide any kind of distraction to the buyer --i am stating this is a collection of parts .i really dislike the connotation of these statements -over the top -overblown-i can document and back up every statement in this description -i doubt there are many bikes that have the hundreds of man hours it took to bring this bike back to life----we have had many poorly built -incorrect racing bikes brought into the amca and this has cast a shadow over some efforts to show examples of bikes built from almost all original components .as far as any controversy about this bike being judged -don't worry it won't happen--------------R.L. JONES

I am the person who made those statements you found that you "disliked/found so offensive," Mr. Jones. I have only the purest of intentions when I take a gander at a motorcycle that I have never laid eyes on before, to give it a once-over based entirely on the information that my eyes and the words of the owner have provided, whether in person or from photographs and a written descriptions in an Ebay sales pitch. I have judged in the AMCA many times; since I was invited by the the late Dr. John Patt to participate in judging at the Moosup, Connecticut, Yankee Chapter National Meet, in 1982. NO offense, nor sarcasm was intended by me, and if you were taken aback, you have my apologies, sir.

As far as to why I made those observations of an Ebay bike that I was evaluating with absolutely no pre-knowledge as to its ownership or pedigree, but simply as another offering of an Ebay seller (and subject to all of the baggage as to the seller's reputation and veracity that comes along with that, these days), I thank you for so thoroughly answering the questions that were raised in my, and many other peoples' minds, yourself:

"(a) couple of 2-cam cases were stamped 8v in California years ago and that is how that rumor started... (and) ...yes, this was a highly groomed collection of parts... (and) ...we have had many poorly built -incorrect racing bikes brought into the AMCA and this has cast a shadow over some efforts to show examples of bikes built from almost all original components.

Under the AMCA's rules for judging factory-stock racing machines, they now are subject to the same rules as restorations of ordinary factory-built machines to factory-new condition. Under the rules, motorcycles built around reproduction, non-factory frames, while eligible to be judged, are subject to an unwaivable 6-point deduction, a provision made by the AMCA Board of Directors, which provides that they will never score higher than 94 total points, and thus this one will never be eligible to enter the Winners Circle and earn the "Winners Circle" roundel attached its fork. While it is built of an enviable collection of very rare and almost irreplaceable NOS and reconditioned Harley factory racing bike parts, the bike we're talking about is a replica, sir. It has no history as an intact 1927 motorcycle.

That motor and those parts were not built and sold by the Milwaukee factory in 1927 as anything but various "spare parts" for factory racing machines, and, regrettably, though they are now rare and highly sought-after parts for use in a restoration, the sum of them, without a factory frame, is, under the rules, a replica bike; one with no history as a motorcycle since 1927.

Much complaint has been made of the Board of Directors' recent rule that entrants into judging sign a form, acknowledging that they realize that an earned judging score less than "Winners Circle" is not a warranty by the AMCA of the quality of the bike concerned. The upside of that is that a motorcycle with only a numerical score (i.e.: a Junior or Senior rating) is not "finished," under the intent. The only recognized warranty as to the relative quality of a bike that the AMCA makes is a Winners Circle roundel. Thereafter, no typewritten "waiver" can prevent an owner from pointing out to potential buyers that the motorcycle he is offering has won one of those, a feature attached to the fork! But a judging "number" indicates only a 'work in progress,' and the BOD has ruled that there is no AMCA warranty to be claimed of any intermediary "degrees-of-perfection," like "85" or "92 AMCA judging points;" only the Winners Circle award.

The BOD has decreed that a bike with only an 85 or 90 point score should not be construed, or sold, as "finished," any more than a baby can be considered "born" because it has completed 7 or 8 months' gestation in its mother's womb. That youngster is not "certified" (being why we call it a birth CERTIFICATE, eh?) and eligible for all of the rights and privileges afforded to it as a complete human being until it is birthed into this world and takes it first breath.

Likewise, when a motorcycle is under restoration, it is not an example, exemplary of, the year and marque it represents, until it is finished. That is the purpose of "Winners Circle" classification. It is the embodiment of a legacy that we, who are living in this time, are leaving to our descendents, warranting to them that this or that bike, exhibiting these features, is a genuine, exact historical artifact, that can be relied upon to embody all of the characteristics of two-wheeled internal combustion transportation originally featured on it, in the very first century of motorized transportation.

I sympathize with your predicament, Mr. Jones, you having invested considerable money and effort in creating your replica bike, but as built, it could never score higher than 94 points on the AMCA judging field.

[bikerdds]

Gerry, it is safe to say there are more overhead 8 valve racers today than dutring the day. When I was in New Zealand last year, I saw a 100% restored original 8 valve. While it was apart, EVERY single piece was copied. That was per the owner. Most guys just want the top end conversion to make their own from an original motor. We know the entire motorcycle has been copied now. They only qualify for someone's personal collection.

[Sargehere]

Exactly, Marty. As wealthy collectors toys, they have their place, but as bikes with a history, today's average "repli-racers" are wealthy collectors' toys; for only family and friends to look at in their living rooms, probably.

Regarding R.L.s racing restorations, however, a mainstream museum, like the Whitney or The Museum of Modern Art, or Philadelphia's Franklin Institute of Science & Technology, would probably be more appropriate venues for their display as educational tools, relating to generations yet unborn the story of the birth of internal-combustion transportation in the Twentieth Century. But I doubt even one of them could truly do the subject, and his top drawer bikes, justice.

[silentgreyfello]

Photo of vin

Here is a pic of the VIN.

1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg

[silentgreyfello]

--serial no's are 27fhad540 and belly numbers are matching.

You meant 27FHAC540, right? That is from the pic of your bike. Wasn't FHAD for hillclimber, FHAC for boardtracker?

[Chris Haynes]

Here is a pic of the VIN.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6239[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]6238[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]6237[/ATTACH]

Is that a date code I see peeking up from the bottom of the first picture? Date codes didn't come in till 1938.

[rwm]

not sure if all two cam motors have it or just fh motors

[rickychip]

is that a date code i see peeking up from the bottom of the first picture? Date codes didn't come in till 1938.

hey chris --that is in fact a date code -the 2 cam racing motors had these codes---r.l

[sirhrmechanic]

While it was apart, EVERY single piece was copied. That was per the owner. Most guys just want the top end conversion to make their own from an original motor. We know the entire motorcycle has been copied now..

There is a saying in our niche of the antique car world that "Of the original 50 Birkin Blower Bentley's... only 85 survive!" So true. There are at least 5 - 6 "Blue Train" specials running around. More LeMans team cars than ever ran at LeMans.

We have seen cases where rare (multi-million $) Alfa's and Bugatti's go into a shop... and 2 or 3 "originals" emerge, each with enough original parts split between the three to try and pass themselves off as original. Numbers are monkeyed, titles get issued in 'lenient' states... or cars are sold overseas. 6c Alfas become 8c Zagatos... Long Chassis saloons become short chassis racing cars... each one driven by Scuderia Ferrari.

Cars known to have been destroyed in fires or dismantled at the breakers 'miraculously' reappear from barns with fanciful stories about how they were ressurected from the parts carefully saved from the Germans by hiding them under the false floor in the rectory...

Sometimes... two cars with the same number show up! (ask Jay Leno about his Phantom II!)

This bike is, in my opinion, being honestly represented as what it is. Good or bad is up to individual opinion. I think it's neat. If I could afford it, I would love to own that machine because I would ride the heck out of it... But whatever your opinion, the buyer is going to be completely aware of what they are getting because the seller is being honest. And it will 'trade' for a fair price based on that honesty.

But how long before the story morphs from 'brilliant collection of parts' to 'original racer' to 'original paint unrestored racer' to 'ridden by Barney Oldfield' (I know, he was a car driver, but I don't know any old board track racer names...) etc... It only takes one unscruplous owner or dealer or auctioneer somewhere down the pipeline and one unknowing buyer and suddenly, there is a misrepresented machine. And the historical record becomes blurred if it has 'become' an original untouched machine.

As always, caveat emptor! And in these kinds of big leagues... do research! Have a pro vet both the vehicle and the seller. Photos, history, documentation... We tell our clients looking for cars to go in with their eyes wide open and their wallet shut tight... Don't rush! You may 'want' that original Ghost... but you don't need it. Take the time to buy right.

Anyway, hope this machine finds a great home. I think it's a rather brilliant job myself.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[c.o.]

You meant 27FHAC540, right? That is from the pic of your bike. Wasn't FHAD for hillclimber, FHAC for boardtracker?

Check this out... http://www.wheelsthroughtime.com/vid...ectlink-5.html