New Class??

[fabercycle]

William McClean,

I have the utmost respect for your opinion. I hope you can allow me to have mine.

I disagree that the founding fathers of the AMCA were as "anal " as what we have now.

There were never more incorrect bikes in the club than in the first 30 years. ( I believe that to be a fact, not opinion.)

I believe they wanted to keep old bikes together and running as viable machines, and provide a network to allow people to buy sell and trade parts, as a primary function.

While I appreciate, and respect winners circle bikes, and certainly, am making my living because of the "extra mile" my customers go to get it right, I believe that the judging, value, awards, resale value, are all factors that people are currently fighting, bitching, and back-stabbing about.

The more emphasis on judging, the more fighting, and bad feelings there is.


What happened to people enjoying their antique bikes?


I think the club has done a fine job of preserving correct bikes, and is continuing to.

The peer pressure from who I referred to as "correctness nazis" is what is causing the prices of parts to soar. The attitude, if a bike isn't perfect, is "Oh that's a piece of crap, made up from many different year junk!" Then everybody thinks they have to change every part on their bike to avoid criticism. You see it on this forum and others constantly....people picking on an ebay listing of a bike for sale, and seeing how many parts you can pick on "not being correct". (YOUR BIKE NEEDS ONLY TO PLEASE YOU, NO-ONE ELSE)

William, it is my opinion that your response, shows your intolerance of others, and their interpetation of what makes them happy about old motorcycles.....lighten up man, lifes'too short.

Hat's off to Matt for helping the club go in other directions that may acually include fun, instead of more drama, and bitching.


ps, Tommo, i already had this written , and submitted before I read your last post, and obviously agree.

[motorpickle]

New ideas

I would like to express my opinion of Matt's new project. Please note the word OPINION. I enjoy every AMCA meet I attend. There is a smiling face to welcome me and eye candy galore. I never go to the area set aside for judging until I have eyeballed all the neat stuff in the parking lot and parked in the vendors areas. I am never surprised at what an individual will kick over and ride down the highway. PURE HEAVEN! When I have made the rounds I go to see the restoration projects our members have assembled, sometimes years in the making. This is truly the best of both worlds. And they all run! I have not felt that anyone in the AMCA, be it Board member or Joe Average, was trying to exclude me from anything. Matt is trying to include a well recognized portion of young and older bikers/builders. I do not see any hidden agenda here. Matt is a nationally known restorer and knows the difference between a bobber and a concourse restoration. I think this idea is intended to create enjoyment of what we already see around us. If it is a failure, so be it. I will not condemn it without the chance to experience it first. I think we will all know if it turns out to be a bad idea, and it will be discontinued.
I ask my fellow riders to enjoy the 2010 AMCA events where ever and whenever they can.

[T. Cotten]

Hey folks,
The term "anal retentive" wasn't even invented when this organization was formed.
But I'll bet the Founders considered themselves very critical, or they never would have dreampt up this effort.

If I may condense my point of view:

Serious judging should remain as serious as it can:
No winners or losers, just diligent progress towards a scientific, although occasionally mythical,.. ideal,
boring as it might be.

But un-judgeable vanity awards, like any Chapter recognition in the past, plus all the fun promotions we can dream up, should remain secondary and separate in the public eye.

Please do not taint what little credibility the organization has left.

....Cotten
oh yeah, #776

[RichO]

Correctness

The club was founded for the preservation of and the education about our two wheeled history. That not only includes "as from the factory" machines, but racers, one's modified by their owners to serve a special purpose, or just to fill the owners vision of what he wanted his or her machine to be. If it's 35 years or older it meets the founding fathers reasonings. Just because one doesn't like a certain machine doesn't mean someone else doesn't. It almost sounds like the Indian riders that never road a Harley but might have liked it if they only tried it. Or maybe not. Which of my chopper, bobjob, or stocker do I like the most or ride the most? ALL OF THEM! It won't wreck the club, It'll just make it more inclusive. They all have two wheels, they all go round, and they'll all be 35 years old some day. Someday we won't be here but someone will. I hope they get to see the whole history. It may have come from the factory one way but most didn't stay that way long and that's history too.

[indianut]

As only one member, I see no issue with having one class being made available to individuals that are not yet able to buy a total real machine and have the funds to restore it back to original state in an exacting fashion. I know many long term AMCA members who are on period correct modified machines (but not judgable machines) and have not completed the restoration yet due to missing parts or lack of funds at this time....

Steve, I take offense to your statements and find them rather condescending. From reading your post I feel that you believe that because I do not restore one of my Vintage Motorcycles to a 'Factory Correct' condition it is because I can not afford to! Sorry, I can, I just Do Not Want to! I have been an A.M.C.A. member for 25 years and I have seen 41 States from the torn, worn out, seats of my Vintage Motorcycles, including several Indian Chiefs with Toyota alternators fitted to them. My Motorcycles, even though they may not be Worthy of Judging, are "total Real Machines". whether "Exactly Original" or "Period Correct". When I go to an A.M.C.A. event, anywhere in the Country. I ride there to hang out and look at and talk about with my Friends, both new and old, Vintage Motorcycles! I have No Desire to have any of my Motorcycles Judged by anyone other than myself! I do not care if another member wishes to do so, they have joined the A.M.C.A. for Different Reasons than me. I do however, feel that the people who trailer their Bikes to meets and unload them to line up for the Judging so they can get their points, or trophies, or whatever, then load them back up again, or even just go on the little Organized Road Runs are the ones who are truly 'Missing the Boat' It is Very Presumptuous of you to think that because someones Vintage Motorcycle is not a 'Correct Restoration' is because it can not be afforded!! 85% of the time that a motorcycle is Restored, the REAL history is Lost. Just my Humble opinion. By the way, if I need a part I do not have....I MAKE it!

[T. Cotten]

85% of the time that a motorcycle is Restored, the REAL history is Lost. Just my Humble opinion.

Mine too.
That's the other 'discussion' I mentioned earlier.

Serious judging has its problems!
My contention is that adding un-judgeable confusion just adds more.

Let the bling-obsessed, the righteous rats, and the truly creative, in all the new classes, have their recognition as Chapter Awards.

Then serious judging might retain some credibility maybe.
It could happen.
Honest.
Nevermind.

....Cotten

[Bills37]

I'm not sure where I am going with this statement so bear with me. I got my first antique bike in 1978. It was an 1947 Indian Chief chopper with a very nicely done 10" extended Scout front end on it. Parts were scarce and so was information. We cobbled these things together the best we could with what was available. Over the years it went thru several reincarnations from bobber to near stock. It was never nor will it ever be correct as an example of a restored Chief. But of all the bikes in my garage that ugly duckling is my favorite. As far as a new class, I don't see where it takes away from the value or prestige of the other classes. Just my 2 cents worth.

[T. Cotten]

I'm not sure where I am going with this statement so bear with me. I got my first antique bike in 1978. It was an 1947 Indian Chief chopper with a very nicely done 10" extended Scout front end on it. Parts were scarce and so was information. We cobbled these things together the best we could with what was available. Over the years it went thru several reincarnations from bobber to near stock. It was never nor will it ever be correct as an example of a restored Chief. But of all the bikes in my garage that ugly duckling is my favorite. As far as a new class, I don't see where it takes away from the value or prestige of the other classes. Just my 2 cents worth.

So Bill,
By what standards do you want your 'ugly duckling' Chief to be judged by in this new un-judgeable class?

Public appeal?
Guest celebrity judges?

What if you get beat by a Yamaha?

....Cotten

[RichO]

Just another thought or two

Did anyone wonder why Pebble Beach now includes early hot rods, customs, and finally this year motorcycles? Because they are wheeled history too. The VFW, Model T, Model A, and Horseless Carriage club just to name a few have seen their membership of mostly WWII era owner steadly declining. We that came after that war are next in line. If this is what it takes to get younger people involved it's not a bad thing. There's not as many Matt Olsen, Matt Walksler, and Tyler Halter's out there as one would like to believe. Aside from that it's really about two wheeled vehicles, a mode of transportation amoung many. Some never enjoy them because they wait 15 years to have the right horn before it comes out of the garage, or it cost WAY to much money to start it up, or the tires have to be wrapped to roll it out on the grass. That's O.K. if that's what you like. I've seen the guy with the 100 point machine look down his nose when someone rolls out an original rusty, crusty and fires it up and walks to the back of the crowd to watch the looks on the faces of the huge crowd that is drawn like the Pied Piper played to it because THEY CAN'T BELIEVE IT RUNS AND IT'S JUST SO DAMN COOL! (sorry I had my cap botton on) These kid's will grow up, raise families, and along the way gather enough funds to hopefully get a piece of two wheeled history. They may restore it, they may bob it, or they may make it fit their own vision as thousands have before them. If it has an old motor, trans, frame, forks, and wheels, and goes down the road it to will light the fire that has consumed me for some 45 years and that's not a bad thing. We give the standard awards at our national meet as required but we also give a Peoples Choice, Best rat bike, Best Japanese, British, European, Competition, and American for the one's that don't or can't enter the AMCA judging. It's not for egos or vanity. It's about recognition for their efforts even if they're 100 point machines(just don't want to get them judged) or are not. I make these trophies by hand over hours and hours because that's what they did to get their machine there factory stock or not. It just feels right to me. No plastic plaque, no laser cutter, no B.S. The smile on their face is all I need. You?

[Paquette]

I believe that Tom Faber and Rich-O have hit it on the head. The history of motorcycling from day one has been about the individual owner and his desires for a bike that reflected his tastes, just take a look at some of Herbert Wagoner's excellent books. "Pimp-My-Ride" is nothing new. And Mr. Cotten, yes the AMCA is about preservation or restoration of the old bikes, but there are many motorcyles out there ( I have 2 of them) that will NEVER be AMCA quality bikes but are either quite correct or just a period bastardazation to never qualify for judging. But these are examples of what folks did with their bikes. I do have a problem with the membership being " the last to know" but I do not feel that this new class in any way takes away from those JR , SR and winner circle bikes, it just reflects how the hobby really and truly was in the day and still continues to this day. Mr. Faber and Mr. Olsen are also quite correct in that everyone entered this hobby in a different way and if we want to have a future as a club, we have to attract younger members that just cannot afford a truly vintage motorcycle. I am going to call these " The Shovelhead Generation"--Just my take --Michael--6671t

[Bills37]

So Bill,
By what standards do you want your 'ugly duckling' Chief to be judged by in this new un-judgeable class?

Public appeal?
Guest celebrity judges?

What if you get beat by a Yamaha?

....Cotten

I think by definition it's a "beauty contest" with as few criteria's as needed.

So what, if in the end it's meaningless. Me thinks the AMCA will remain a club that
will be mainly for those would like the restore and preserve antique motorcycles, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for other rides.


To answer your question. What if I got beat by a Yamaha?


The judges were either blind or bought.

[vince_A]

We (my local M/C club) judge bikes but we also have a "popular" category voted on by the attendees at the rally in which we encourage "Chicago-style voting" (vote early and vote often) and the crowd favorite is VERY popular, the trophy is essentially meaningless.

I have 3 bikes:

A highly custom Norton Commando-project that will never be judged (it's "wrong" but it will be NICE).

A "period-correct" Triumph TRW that because of it's background could not be restored "properly", it will never be judged.

A 1936 BMW R2 that is getting a CORRECT restoration and WILL be submitted for judging by the AMCA, I have gone to great trouble and expense to see that this bike is CORRECT.

3 bikes and 3 stories, while the Norton and the Triumph are mine and being done with loving care I knew going in that they did not meet AMCA "standards" because the AMCA judging is for CORRECT machines.
In my opinion this new class should NOT be judged by judges but by popular vote, that removes all doubt as to the "meaning" of the trophy.

Unclviny

[bmh]

Sounds like an in for the Chopper Freaks to me. Hasn't enough good old motorcycle stuff been hacked up??? I got away from custom bikes because I was sick of dealing with those most commonly found in that circle. If they follow me here, I don't know what I'll do.

[T. Cotten]

In my opinion this new class should NOT be judged by judges but by popular vote, that removes all doubt as to the "meaning" of the trophy.

Unclviny

I agree it would remove all doubt, AND all meaning.

Easyriders, here we come.
Skull Class, anyone?

...Cotten

[Lonnie]

(Disclaimer - no threats or disrespect, to anyone living or dead, meant by this post, either intentionally or unintentionally).

Though I risk taking this thread down a different path (or not), it has been stated that the "custom" bikes that this new class is designed to accomodate are just built around a basket-case, often just a motor or most of a motor. While this may be the case for many of these customs, it is not the case for all.

Every morning I get my big cup of coffee and I read through 30 or more of the blogs on blogger.com, among them some of the masters of this type bike. Many of these builders are Limpnickie Lot guys. They do some good work, most bikes built around a very rideable platform, modern-day interpretations of bobbers, rigid frames and stock-length springers.

I have seen, though, that in some cases the builder has started with a complete and running Duo-Glide or slab shovel, pulled the motor and trans for the build and sells the rest as either a roller or parted out. I did the same thing myself back in the late seventies, to my present-day regret. In many ways the lifestyle of these dudes reminds me of what we were living in the seventies.

It has always been my hope that our beloved bikes had gained enough respect not to go through the dismemberment, were past all that suffering in the name of Custom or Chopper. I can respect the work put into these bikes and the parts literally handmade to the owner's personal liking and I know no one on this forum or anywhere else for that matter can control anything beyond that in their own world, but man, I hate to see this happen again!

Will this new class encourage some of us to dismantle one of our bikes to build a custom? I doubt it. Will it broaden the appeal of the AMCA to the Limpnickie crowd? Considering that many of these guys attend one or more AMCA swapmeets each year, it may or may not.

I have personally witnessed more than one meticulously restored Model A Ford purchased and dismantled to build a street rod. I have even seen an original paint Vicky dismantled to build a rat rod! I have seen a restored '63 split-window fuelie turned into a Pro Street ride, it even made the cover of the car magazines! Could that equivalent happen to our bikes that we so cherish at some future point?

Perhaps the intent of the new class is to bring these custom builders back from the Dark Side?