The oddball Har-Dav Serial Number thread!

[HarleyCreation]

hi,
I only have the right case U9-555.
could the U9-555 come from a raceing engine..? I think that I have
seen raceing engine from after 1916 with raised Harley Davidson lettters on the
right crankcase? ore am I wrong about this.

then 21366 those the numbers looks like harley stamps...?

Don't know if it's racing or street.

Nor can I tell you if those are factory stamps which is something I need to study and learn.

But without a letter prefix or suffix it doesn't appear to fit the factory numbering system. There should not be any plain number over 10,000.

[glaser 31]

okay,
but normal harley ended with raised letters on the right crankcase,
in 1916...?

[HarleyCreation]

okay,
but normal harley ended with raised letters on the right crankcase,
in 1916...?

Which raised letters are you talking about?

Can you post a photo link?

[glaser 31]

Herb,
sorry fore my bad english,mayby you call it cast letters.
But anyway here it is U9-555 with (raised letters) cast letters
http://s814.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=BILD0131.jpg

[HarleyCreation]

Herb,
sorry fore my bad english,mayby you call it cast letters.
But anyway here it is U9-555 with (raised letters) cast letters
http://s814.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=BILD0131.jpg

Not sure what the raised letters might mean; but only that "U9-555" suggests a c1919 crankcase.

[glaser 31]

from 1916 onwards is the letters engraved in the engine case right side.
but the one I have here has raised letters,like 1916.
look on the photos...

http://s814.photobucket.com/albums/z...1.jpg&newest=1

[HarleyCreation]

from 1916 onwards is the letters engraved in the engine case right side.
but the one I have here has raised letters,like 1916.
look on the photos...

http://s814.photobucket.com/albums/z...1.jpg&newest=1

I see what you mean. Maybe somebody can verify when stock H-D motors switched from raised letters to cast-in letters ("Harley-Davidson, Milwaukee"). A stock 1913 single has raised cast-out letters, but a stock c1924 JD has lowered cast-in letters. Not sure what happened in-between.

When I look at photos in books I'm seeing BOTH cast-in and cast-out letters circa 1917-1920s. So not sure if "U9-555" is a racing motor or not, but the "U9" part suggests it is a 1919 motor.

Anyone know for the years for this cast-in/cast-out letter stock vs. racing crankcase question?

[HarleyCreation]

80-inch "JDL" Road Model -- Yep!

In order to keep these Harley motor number questions together I am copying a few items from other topic threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete reeves

Herb.
I tried to contact you by the private message service on this forum but it would not take my message, so I am using this open forum.
In your recent article in our magazine titled “Cracking the H-D Code” You mentioned a rare 80 cu inch option available in 1929 for the JDH you stated that the designation for this was an L at the end of the serial number.
I own a 1929JDL motor that has an L after the motor number. Having read your article I compared the flywheels on this motor with those of another 29J only to find that they were different castings, the distance between the centre of the pinion shaft and the crank pin is 2 and 1/8 inches giving a stroke of 4 1⁄4 inches the stroke for a 74 cu inch JD should be 4 inches .The fly wheels look like they are OEM Harley.
Was the 80 cu inch option also available on JDLs ?
Any information you can let me have on this would be greatly appreciated.
Any input from other forum members would also be appreciated.

Regards Pete Reeves 860

Yes, two 80-inch options are listed for 1929, including the one mentioned in the article and your 29JDL.

Here is the factory data for your motor:

Model No. = "29JD"
Motor Equipped = "80 ci Motor -- 4-1/4" Stroke"
Motor No. = "29JDL-1000L"
Motor Assembly No. = RA825JD

Notice that it seems if you wanted this option, you bought it under the "29JD" model designation altho the motor number would read JDL + "L". Sneaky, eh?

[HarleyCreation]

A famous racing motor!

Here was really good motor find. Earl is one lucky guy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl

Hi Herbert,

I've got a set of cases that reads M525M for a motor number, and has matching belly numbers of 15113E

Now that we've cracked more of the Harley Code, this one should be easy. I'll just reach into Pennington's top-hat (like Bullwinkle moose would do) and pull out "M-525M"

Whoa boy!

Apparently there are still some important but unrecognized crankcases out there worthy of total bike replication and this appears to be one of them.

Motor: "M-525M"

Model 16T
"Twin Track Racer" (pocket-valve)
M = racing motor
525 = 26th motor built in this engine series
T = 1916

That series motor was not used for any other application so it appears to be one of the famous 1916 pocket-valve track racers we see in all the photos. The same motor that took 3rd place at Dodge City and 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 6th places at Sheepshead Bay, both on July 4th, 1916. The Harley "Eights" of course took first place in both of those races.

What a great find.

What did you pay for those old junk cases, twenty bucks?

[HarleyCreation]

Maldwyn Jones's "M-402J" Harley code broken!

This one comes from the "Harley 8-V" thread and contains some important information on early 4-V & 8-V motor numbers.

PS: Next issue of club mag will have a new and really terrific photo taken in 1916 of Maldwyn Jones on this same Harley four-valve #M-402J plus Ray Weishaar on another four-valve Harley that I've never seen before. Great stuff!

Quote: Herb aka HarleyCreation

I was a little off in my previous interpretation of the Jones's Harley 4-V motor number "M-402J" but not by much.

That's because it is NOT stamped as a 1916 motor, but as a 1915 motor.

Yep!

I went back and studied 1915-'16 motor numbers and found this:

"J" suffix: 1915 singles
"K" suffix: 1915 doubles
"L" suffix: 1916 singles
"M" suffix: 1916 doubles


"J-K" (1915) and "M-L" (1916) are year codes!

It is 99% clear now what "M-402J" stands for:

"M" = racing motor
"402" = 3rd motor built in Four-Valve OHV series
"J" = a 1915 single (built on twin bottom)

Using this same system then a 1916 Four-Valve should be marked "M-400L" and an 1916 Eight-Valve likely as "M-800M"

Nice, eh?

This system only works for c1915-'16 multi-valves as in 1917 Harley-Davidson again changed its motor numbering system. We still need a 1915-'16 Eight-Valve number to see what the motor number range was, but I'm guessing it was "800" and up. If that's right, then Otto Walker's 1915 Harley Eight-Valve should have been marked: "M-800K."

Now, if we could just flip that 1944 Clymer photo "1915" Harley eight-valve bike around and take a gander at its motor number what would we find?

Thanks again to Jerry Hatfield for revealing and verifying this important Jones's Special 4-V motor number.

[HarleyCreation]

Another mystery "M" prefix early racing motor?

I'm still hoping we can get a peek at this baby!

Herb,
You made me so surprised, that I drop my coffee cup.
when I read that racing engine starts with M [prefix], but is this the same
for 2 cyl engine, because then I know where there is a case laying here,
near by me..

I'm just glad it was only coffee cup you dropped and not primo dunkel Euro Bier.

Yes, "M" prefix for racing twins too -- at least some years.

Can you dig crankcase out of your treasure trove (junk pile) and give us the full VIN?

Sad, that is not my crankcase, but I will go to him and see if I can first buy it or he will let me take some photos of it. It is only the crankcase with flywheels inside. Last I look on it, then I looked on the M, I didnt know what the letters stand for. And I can maybe get some story about it, and it's an early crankcase....

And next I will let my coffee stand on the table when I read here...

Still waiting for update. Hope glaser didn't spill any more coffee....

[HarleyCreation]

Can't exist motor!

I`m not quite sure if this is the correct thread to ask in, but I`l take the chance.
If Herbert aka Harley Creation could check his files to see if he could find any info on 32 FHB 801 I would truly apprechiate it. I know where this engine rest, it seems to have been built for alcohole and it is a tapered fin 61" twin cam with the barrel style racing carb. I have some ideas of its history but the first years are kind of blurry.
I`ve mentioned this engine before as I find it very cool they made the IOE several years later than what the books says.



Kind regards
Sverre
AMcN
http://AmericanMotorcyclesNorway.blogspot.com

Where do you European guys come up with these amazing motors?

Tsk, tsk, we all know that motor "32-FHB-801" could NOT possibly exist!

Let me do some digging, okay?

[sveger]

Oddball engine numbers

Hi Herb., thanks a lot for getting me to the right thread with this question.

"Where do we come up with all these amazing motor numbers",

Oh we dont want the experts to think they have seen it all, he he.

Joke aside, any info would be truly apprechiated and I`m waiting to hear your finds if or when.
Needless to say, this motor is on my wish list. I wouldnt mind at all letting this baby loose on an oval again. Sigh!!

Should have said a long time ago, truly apprechiated your writing on the 8 valve issue in the last AMCA mag. Look forward to the continuation of the article.

Kind regards
Sverre
AMcN
http://AmericanMotorcyclesNorway.blogspot.com

[HarleyCreation]

Buy "32FHB" motor NOW!

Sveger,

Thanks. Part 2 has a really interesting photo c1916 showing an early H-D Four-Valve variant that I've never seen before.

Re: "32-FHB-801"

Okay, as everyone knows, in 1932 Harley-Davidson wasn't "officially" listing pocket-valve motors anymore, but you already knew that.

Assuming the number is authentic, we can speculate as we did for an earlier 1930 pocket-valve racing motor found in Denmark, I think it was, that these motors were still available to favorite dealers overseas. And why not? Harley probably had a million parts left over and lots of experience with these traditional motors.

Looking into my crystal ball, I see that "officially" no FHB motors were made after 1927. In fact, it looks like the FHB was planned for 1927 but may have been cancelled.

But going from that data we can conclude:

Motor: "32-FHB-801"

1932 "Model FHB" (Export: "Model EFHB" << Note that!)

Which was an:

"80 cu. in. Hill Climb Machine 'DM Pistons'"

From that you can see that "32FHB" was NOT an oval motor, but a slant-shooter motor!

"DM Pistons" probably stands for Dow Metal pistons which I believe was a magnesium alloy -- light but strong.

Since motor numbers for this model started at 800, this particular motor was the 2nd made in 1932, and two might have been all there was.

Proper frame (for 1927 "FHB") would be marked: "27C-500"

This brings up a question. If pocket-valve racing motors were being slipped to overseas dealers as late as 1932, were similar motors still available in the USA from the H-D factory and how late were they being made?

At some point in time pocket-valves were banned by the AMA from racing, altho offhand I can't recall the year. Anyone know that? That would tell us something about when they were finally dropped for good.

Eventually, however, Harley ditched all that "JD" stuff which probably included racing parts too. A story goes with that.

John Nowak once told me that he had the job of hauling tons of obsolete "JD" parts to the West Bend landfill and dumping them and then waiting around until they were all covered up and buried so guys like us wouldn't steal them. Nowak started at H-D in 1936, so that would give us the approx. date of that atrocity. :-(

[junkyarddog]

To bad the Harley was never taught it to be sinful to waist.
Seems they could have given those parts to some dealers or novice racer that would have put them to use.
Years ago I stopped at the Omaha dealer *Kemper HD* in the morning.
They had been cleaning and had a 5X8 trailer full of parts that they were throwing away.
The *explict* owner wouldn't sell them to me.
After that I bought several new bikes from a dealer in So. Dakota.
Jim