Charlie Carter

[Sargehere]

As one who remembers those days as an active member (who joined in 1972, #607), before this snowball gets to rollin' too fast, I would point out that all the problems with the subject editor didn't suddenly occur near the expiration of his term of service.
Before he took it over, The Antique Motorcycle was produced for many years by hand by Ernie & Betty Biddle and later Earl Chalfant, among others. It was hand-typed and assembled "on the kitchen table," and it was a labor of love. And, it stood out as an outstanding volunteer-club publication for that era.
In the early 70's, what people from other regions soon started calling "The Florida Mafia" took over leadership of the AMC (it wasn't called "AMCA" in those days) and C.C. was appointed editor because he was involved in the printing trade, and was able to significantly dress up the looks of the magazine; but content was suddenly found to be absent. In response almost immediately the complaints started coming up from the peninsula that he wasn't getting enough input.
Well, he was all the way down in Florida. Previous editors had been major players-officers and board members of the club who attended every meet, from Florida to New Jersey to Davenport, Iowa (and gasoline was was also 29.9 cents a gallon; 34.9 for "high test").
In those days, the club membership was run on a calendar-year basis. Everyone paid early in the year ($6) and was promised four magazines, through December. Almost immediately after it moved to Florida, the magazine started coming out later-and-later. There was no longer any such thing as a "deadline," and it first came to a head in 1976, where, at the first Board meeting of the year, dues had to be raised to $12 a year.
This caused quite a stir later that year, when in December, members who counted the magazine as their main connection with the club had received two issues: Spring (in May)and Summer (in October), with Christmas just around the corner.
Editorials started appearing in chapter newsletters towards the end of 1976, calling on Charlie to either fulfill the duties of his office, or graciously step down and allow someone to take up it who could. Founder Emmett Moore, of New Jersey, and otherwise retired, even volunteered to take over as editor and promised on-time delivery. The Florida-based club leadership rallied around Charlie, mostly out of regional loyalty, I guess, who was by now getting a reputation as someone with the kindly personality of a Florida water mocassin.
He stuck it out, for a few more years, seemingly mostly out of "pride," before it all became too much for all concerned, and the final chapter to his tender was finally written in the '80s, that some of the newbies here have already recalled.
Kindly Club President, the late Bob McClean actually took it over and published it at least to the professional standard clubmembers had come to expect by then, and always insured it was interesting and informative; and on time.
There's a reason he was passed over for Honorary membership, years ago. Let's not cast a tint upon the past with rose-colored glasses just because it was long ago. It was actually one of the darkest periods in AMC-AMCA history.

[RichO]

Irregular forum user

More prunes would probally help that condition but I've to much time needed in the shop to worry. Sargethere, not only is that factual but us guys out west had a hard time getting any space in the mag back then, it leaned way towards the east. We all have good days and bad days. sometimes good years and bad years. The honorary list has become the AMCA's Hall of Fame (remember when there was only 4 or 5 names on it forever) if you would and that's not a bad thing. If Charlie makes it I hope someone at sometime also mentions Rick Shunks name too. I know the club and Rick didn't part with a smile eithe, but for over ten years he brought our mag into the 21st century and we are what we are today because of his hard work. Good, bad, or indifferent. I've only got 30 years of club memory to work on. Oh, and while we're at it, what about Ben Chesney? The Ghost

[rwm]

this must be why the pit. steelers don't retire players #s.

[exeric]

Red Fred; thank you for your attention to this matter. As Barry Brown expressed, you show your respect for the membership by grabbing on to some of these issues and questions and getting answers for us. Believe me, that is very much appreciated by the members.

Sargehere; people picked their sides in those days and when I suggested Charlie Carter be considered for honorary membership, I knew there would be some hard feelings. Charlie was in a controversial job for the club, just as Rick Schunk, the Biddles, and Earl Chalafant were. I have heard bad things about those people and I have heard great things about those people. There are some stone busting hard jobs in the AMCA; editor and chief judge quickly come to mind and I learned long ago to not tell a ditch digger how to do his job.

RichO, I agree with you 100% about the contributions of Rick Schunk. Rick needs to be recognized for making the "Antique Motorcycle" into the best damn motorcycle magazine on this planet.

[Perry Ruiter]

RichO, I agree with you 100% about the contributions of Rick Schunk. Rick needs to be recognized for making the "Antique Motorcycle" into the best damn motorcycle magazine on this planet.

And for probably the first half of Rick's tenure it was a volunteer position ... Perry

[Sargehere]

Sargehere; people picked their sides in those days and when I suggested Charlie Carter be considered for honorary membership, I knew there would be some hard feelings. Charlie was in a controversial job for the club, just as Rick Schunk, the Biddles, and Earl Chalafant were. I have heard bad things about those people and I have heard great things about those people. There are some stone busting hard jobs in the AMCA; editor and chief judge quickly come to mind and I learned long ago to not tell a ditch digger how to do his job.

Exeric, When your basement is knee deep with runoff because your ditch digger has decided to buy a fancy, unnecessary new backhoe you didn't ask for and that you're obligated to help to pay for, but declines to use it unless he's begged, you have a legitimate bone to pick with your ditch digger.
Charlie was never thrust into a controversial job. He just never really resolved his (mis)handling of it, and his expressed defensive, self-righteous attitude drove a significant portion of the club membership to call for his ouster. He was only kept on because he was part of the aforementioned 1970s "Florida Mafia."
Even after the following led to months of public discussion within the club, he never learned. And the club's members had to reqretfully become accustomed to sporadic production of his fancy-pants magazines, when all they really wanted was competently written news of the club, back in that age before the internet.
Knowing it was going to re-stir a hornet's nest, you brought this all up again. You want to put him up for honorary membership? For what, his first year of editorship? Good luck.

TO THE WAYBACK MACHINE, SHALL WE?
THE SEABOARD SIDECAR
Winter, 1976

EDITORIAL by Gerry Lyons, Editor

News from the November Directors' Meeting is that each of us will
pay $12.00 next year for the privilege of belonging to the best antique
motorcycle club in the world. That's an increase of nearly one-third in
a year and up nearly 100% from the $6.50 dues of 1972.
The primary reason given for this increase is increased costs of
making up and mailing The Antique Motorcycle, the club magazine
and the heart of our club. A couple of years ago the decision was
made to mail it First Class, to eliminate some of the non-delivery
problems that were experienced when it was sent at reduced rates.
That was okay, and postal rates have risen, even since then.
Past Editors produced The Antique Motorcycle in a generally black
and white, hand typed, photo-offset format; an inexpensive, even if
laborious, process. The pages were typed by hand and pasted up
individually for the printer to photograph and reproduce. The results
were a labor of love and they looked it. Content was what counted,
and it was never lacking.
If enough contributions were not offered, Ernie, and then Earl, wrote
something up, and every bit of it was interesting and informative. The
Editors were people who attended nearly every meet, so did not have
to rely on member-contributors to write their reports.

And then in 1973 The Antique Motorcycle went to Florida. . .

For the first year of his editorship Charlie Carder produced the
magazine just like his predecessors. It was hand made and
informative.
Then, in 1974, he started getting fancy, adding color covers and then
typeset printing throughout; very professional looking and not like a
club bulletin at all anymore, but rather like something you might buy
at a news stand.
--Has he ever accounted to anyone exactly what these fancy
trimmings cost? Of course, he might have accounted to the National
Directors, at one of their semi-annual meetings, but AMC Directors'
Meetings, where decisions affecting everyone (like increases in
dues) are made, are private affairs and are closed to the rest of
us.--
Just about this time The Antique Motorcycle began to come out
more and more irregularly. The excuse given over and over was a lack of
contributions to fill the magazine, placing the blame on the general
membership of the club, as if, instead of just publishing whatever he
had every three months, Charlie had to wait until he'd received
enough material to produce a magazine tha would meet his
standards. I agree that it's probably tough to produce a quarterly
magazine that's up to the standards he's set when all of the National
Meets except one are well over a thousand miles from the Editor, and
unless he's a very wealthy man with lots of free time, he has to rely
on voluntary contributors almost exclusively to keep the membership
informed.
Along with the typeset pages and all the rest came a new
identification for the Editor. He lists himself first, in bold face type,
before the National Officers and even the Founders on the credits
page. On the next page appears his picture, scowling down at us
from his Editor's Desk. To cap it all, his want ad, besides being
repeated in his Editor's Column, was listed first in the last issue, and
surrounded by an attention getting black border.
I mean... Well, you know what I mean.
As I write this on December 9th, we've received two issues: Spring (in
May) and Summer (in October?) for our year's dues. To many of us,
living in remote regions of the country and to our overseas members,
the magazine is the Antique Motorcycle Club of America, and $4.25 an
issue is a pretty expensive magazine.
The National Directors hope that the Editor won't take past January
15th to produce the fourth issue for 1976. I'm not counting on it, but
even if he does come through, those two issues within a month, of
what is supposed to be a quarterly publication, won't mean too much.
Only that the obligation for four issues almost within a year has been
met, but with content that could have been in one, and should have
been out months ago.
I'm not bringing all of this up to malign Charlie. He's done a good job,
except as noted above, and I'm not asking for his job, nor am I
prepared for it, but I'm bringing out the things that everyone in the
A.M.C. has to be thinking about right now. Charlie made a move in
1974 to upgrade the appearance of our magazine, but it doesn't seem
that he's been able since that time to discharge his basic
responsibility: to deliver it regularly with at least the content
provided by his predecessors.
Earl Chalfant gave it up because he was afraid that he wouldn't have
enough time to contribute to it and refused to drag the membership
through any struggle of his to put it out on time. If the holdup is the
typesetting and color, I personally would rather see The Antique
Motorcycle come out typewritten and in black and white, but at least
every three months. If Charlie doesn't have the time that's required
to spend on The Antique Motorcycle he should admit it and pass the
editorship on to someone who will be able to devote the necessary
time to our magazine.
Six dollars an issue will be far too much to pay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Chris Haynes]

Six dollars and issue will be far too much to pay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------[/LEFT]

Only today we pay $7.50 an issue.

[RichO]

magazine

Yes Chris, only it's 34 years later and it's a whole different magazine and a whole different world. What's some similar magazines go for on the news stand?

[Chuck#1848]

Think I'll throw my hat in the door first....

Sarge,
First understand that I am not looking for an arguement ,I have better things to do with my time. When Eric first posted this topic I replied to it and as I stated I don't know the guy.........or even you for that matter but I think what Eric said and what you said honestly brought some good points you said that he changed it from a clip and paste magazine to color and type set printing brings change to things not always an easy thing to do.
Now you stated shortly after that it began to get published later and later and even shy of the 4 required magazines........again I didn't belong to the club then but ANYBODY that steps in to the position of Editor each new person trys to fill some mighty big shoes from the last person that held the Editors position some of the shoes are loose, and some are spliting at the seams,bottom line I believe that all tried their best to make it an improved magazine in an effort to set the bar just a little higher
And to take it a step further all of them, meaning the past Editors should be up for consideration.
Again Being a Board Member on another MC Club I have been through this very same thing and this topic is only going to divide people more.

Respectfully
Chuck Tretyak
AMCA Member 1848

[LouieMCman]

I also I'm not looking to argue with anyone but I went to my CD's of all the magazines and looked at every year during the 70's and every year had four issues and the looked to be a top notch magazine for that era. Sure he put his picture in there but hey he was doing all the work! I'm sure more work than the officers that he was listed ahead of. But the fact remains he brought the magazine to a new standard even if it took him just a little longer to do it. I cast my vote (not that it means much) to ad Charlie to the growing list of honorary members! Eric, I'll sign the paperwork if you need someone to, I am a 25 year member and a founding chapter president.

[Chris Haynes]

Yes Chris, only it's 34 years later and it's a whole different magazine and a whole different world. What's some similar magazines go for on the news stand?

I dunno. I never buy any.

[Sargehere]

The Club Board of Directors, in its collective wisdom, has elected people to Honorary Membership, up to now, more-or-less by "acclamation," which is how it should be. They are people who were widely recognized, most during their lifetimes and some posthumously, to have dedicated a large part of their lives, and even their livelihoods, to the good of the AMC, and later AMCA, while avoiding controversy and who were well-liked at least by 'almost' everyone who met them.
"Amity" was the word AMC Past President, the late Dr. Art Sigal (1963-73) mentioned to me one time. People who were able naturally to live in amity with their fellow club members while also making significant contributions. The late Bob McClean might have personified it best of all. Everyone loved Bob, who did amazing things to guide and grow the club during his tenure.
There is no one on that list of honorary members who took over a volunteer job for the club and immediately found themselves in-over-their-heads, engendering almost instantaneous criticism, controversy, and bad feelings; which affected the entire membership at the time and for years after, and who responded with bile and animosity, leading to bitter arguments at a series of semi-annual board meetings, and who eventually abandoned their position with prejudice, and who are still capable of stirring bad feelings among survivors, just by mention of their name, thirty five years later. Not one of them. They were all "good guys" (and gals); that's what "honorary" means: "exemplary members," for the next generation to remember and strive to emulate.
Perhaps that's why we have a Board. The "institutional memory" of any organization is a great guide in keeping it pointed in the right direction, and I trust that our present Board of Directors will have the horse sense not to lower the value engendered in the title "AMCA Honorary Member," simply because someone has long outlived his contemporaries.
I knew at least three or four Honorary members, now passed on, who would now be rolling in their graves to know this was even being proposed. So, for me, it is in their memory, and to maintain the value ascribed to honorary status, that I will always oppose this (ill-considered) nomination in the strongest terms.

[Barry Brown]

Looking at the list of honourary members it would appear the standards for being elected to this once esteemed status have already become a joke. Considering that Charlie actually DID SOMETHING for the club it would be a step up. Maybe a bronze statue could be commissioned.

[LouieMCman]

I was only commenting on what was on paper, the magazine from the 70's. I seems to me to be an improvement over early mags. I don't know what all went on back then but I suspect that some people just didn't like the change even though it was the best for the club. Some people are like that, but the "good" people step up and do something about it, not just write letters to stir people up. The "good" ones end up on the lists and those other people are the ones that will never be on the honorary lists.......

[Sargehere]

Louie,
Looking back from this far in the future will never reveal what really went on. I lived it, for one, and am still among the survivors who have not expired in the interim. And I feel like I'm doing the talking for many of them. I read the "bandwagon" starting to roll, this thread, and thought it was entirely appropriate to splash some cold water where I saw untempered enthusiasm building up from people who weren't there, and aren't aware of any of what went on. If I had a fire hose, I'd have used that.

As you looked up, there were, actually, four magazines produced that were sent to those who paid their dues for calendar year 1976. I mentioned in the previous, as I editorialized about it, that we'd received the Spring issue in May, 1976, and Summer in October; all that we'd gotten as I was inspired to ask, as Seaboard Chapter Secretary and Editor, what the heck was going on, on the 9th of December, 1976. The "Fall" issue arrived just before Christmas, 1976, and a "Winter" issue finally arrived around the time that a Spring, 1977, issue would normally have been expected.

As I remember, for the remainder of C.C.'s tenure was it much the same, having slipped an issue in the schedule, club members had to become accustomed, if not happy, to receive seasonal magazines that came out a season late. That kind of thing doesn't show up on your CD; a record like that tells posterity only that four magazines bearing a particular year date were produced, but not when they showed up in the members' mailboxes.

I think that a closer examination will reveal, though, things like that the report, written long before by Bob McClean, of the Fifth Davenport ("Iowa Midwest National Meet," on page 20) held September 11-12, 1976, was finally published in the "Summer, 1977" issue, which came out shortly before the next Davenport meet was held, near the end of Summer, '77.
That's just the tip of the iceberg, to coin a phrase. What follows in that "Summer '77" issue (on page 23), is the "Jacksonville Tenth Year Ends Meet," a meet report, also with photos, of the Florida Fall meet, that had been held on October 16-17, 1976. With only a little closer examination, the sad circus that the membershop was being subjected to begins to be revealed, as we were dealing with a apparently drowning editor, in-over-his-head, for years following his appointment.

C.C. probably had proved himself to have been a competent printer, familiar with typesetting and color separations and the like, to gain the appointment. But he was not a successful "editor." the response from Florida was only dodging, weaving, complaints and blame-shifting. The AMCA was almost in rebellion during that time. It was not pretty!

There are technical printing experts, and there are editors, which is a different job altogether, involving entirely different skills: blending English composition with a great deal of time management, and "people" skills. Printing "technicians" do not necessarily make successful editors, or managers, which, not to malign Rick Schunk's tenure, is what the magazine has finally gotten with the appointment/hiring of Greg Harrison, Bill Wood and crew: professionals who know what they are doing.

C.C. was too proud in his time, despite many pleas to do so, to graciously step down, until he unloaded the job like a wheelbarrow of bricks upon President Bob McClean in the 1980s. Bob was a successful and experienced business man, and soon put things in order and produced an even technically better magazine with no "printing" experience to speak of, having the good sense which was his trademark, to seek out and secure the help he needed when he needed it, and Bob carried the magazine on his own shoulders for several years. That's the kind of "above and beyond" duty performance that makes a member of any organization worthy of a title like "Honorary Member."

I guess that title just means to me that it's not to be handed out like a prize from a crackerjack box to every member who held an office in the club for a certain number of years regardless of performance. And 'specially not to a lightning rod for disappointment and frustration that affected the entire organization.

If Eric and others go through with this, I guess we'll have to see how much the present-day AMCA Board of Directors wants to sit as a "veterans committee" like the Baseball Hall of Fame has, to reconsider old timers passed over when they first became eligible. Tho I consider that this would be the equal of the Baseball Hall finally voting in Pete Rose, or Shoeless Joe Jackson, at the least.
Sorry for going on like this. I just tried to speak for those I knew who were there, who can't speak for themselves any more.