The Non Winner Circle

[rbenash]

Cotten is correct.
A restored machine must look as if it just left the factory. I have seen perfectly restored machines sporting very nice used speedometers. The fact that these speedometers were very nice did not exclude the fact that they had not been restored to new condition and the bikes got gigged.
Another confusing thing is when you see a restored machine with a fresh seat on it and the owner has distressed the new seat to make it appear old and used. What is with that logic? Did new bikes come with old seats? Of course not.

Two points that directly relate to me. The original speedo was on the bike, not working for years. Needed to be rebuilt/repaired. I had the choice to replace the face needle and number wheels as part of that effort. I just couldn't do it. I knew I would probably take a hit as the bike will be considered restoration. I WANTED the patina on the face and I WANTED the old needle, and I WANTED the old number wheels. Why? I WANTED to look at the same things the previous owners did. I didn't want to loose that connection. The speedo internals were rebuilt and it works perfectly and still shows original miles. I like it that way and am happy with it. No way I would have done that differently - subtract the points then.

The bike had the original 1 year (?) deluxe buddy seat with the gold bead. The threads rotted and the seat fell apart. Ran it with a shovel seat in the interim. I have a used original seat that I paid $$ for. It will go on the bike (unless the NOS seat I am working on comes through at $$$). Otherwise the bike which will have to be judged as a restoration will take additional points hits because it has a used seat. You cannot find an original white seat for a '65 FLH unless you look for a long time and spend some $$. You cannot rebuild a seat with original materials because the vinyl material is not available. So people put on the solo seat. Bike didn't start that way, not going to do that.

Funny how this seems to be like the tax laws in this country. People are doing crazy things to avoid taxes. People are doing crazy things to NOS parts and efforts to fit into restoration or original. Guess that's just the game if you get hung up on judging outcomes or get too competitive. I remember my first meet in Oley. There was member there that was having his '64 FLH judged as original. He was going for Senior first. The judges were spending a LOT of time examining the paint because they couldn't tell if it was a repaint or original. The owner told me of the effort he had to go through to repaint and "age" the finish so that he could stay in the original category and get his senior first. Spent hours rubbing the repainted tank to get wear through and patina. Why? Somehow that can't be the intent of the judging/rules, but somehow they sort of support that kind of behavior.

[Greg H]

Reading all this does make me feel there is another judged class required.
As it seems a guy could have a 70 yr old original correct bike parts wise but it has been painted say non factory color 50/40/30/20 years back and never be judged to win an award, but..
But a fully restored correct period/year factory colour bike with best correct looking available repop parts can get winners circle status

So at present 1st bike would have to be restored to go for judging, both bikes sit on the field side by side having attained 99pts, which is the better/ true offering

[T. Cotten]

I think the word you people are searching for is "conserved".

If a "ridden but authentically maintained" catagory stops the carnage of historical gems and artifacts to make for pretty cad or parkerizing like never existed, I'm all for it.

It may even bring things back down to the world of the honest working man. *whew*

But don't forget: YOU people got to judge it.
(In other words: How much anquish and indignation can the system stand?)

...Cotten

[dstrieter]

Ray - The boards were chromed when I got it years ago. The former owner also painted the tanks, fenders and rear police boxes, but the rest appears stock (hopefully confirmed by the MoCo letter in the photobucket link) It also has a shovel oil pump and some non-1038 CP bolts, but I am working on all those while riding it too. Already have the correct kick stand, clutch / brake rubbers and painted tail light housing for it as well.

(And I am NOT planning on "aging" my paint...It IS what it IS!..original with a repaint of the tins)

Dale...AMCA 12775

[rbenash]

Dale that bike is really nice. Pretty nice to just have to worry about a few minor things here and there. Good to see you are running it. It would be a shame to leave it all cooped up in the garage

[Chris in Japan]

To add some additional salt, I remind that, with the exception (maybe) of servicars and police motorcycles that were working tools and not necessarily "objects of devotion" when new, it is amazing to see in the pics in the old books the extremely high percentage of customized bikes at least in the 40's and 50's. You almost see no "factory bikes"! Most featuring fancy bumpers, raisers, furry seats, non-HD saddlebags, no front fender, etc... Certainly this willingness to bring it back to the factory shape was not in the mind of the owners those days. I guess that was also a result of the "attitude to the life" of those riders at that time! Maybe still alive in some of you when I read you. These were for sure not average people and in the search of identity and accordingly trying at their best to "break the line" in their factory bikes at the first day they bought them and making something special and cool on them. All this said, with the exception of the "bubble-Indians", I am a strong believer that almost every bike looking perfect today, it was not in some moment of their history and got those lost seats, fenders back by some modern owner starting to forecast that "factory" was not longer "boring" but rather "valuable" and "loyal to the origin"!

BTW! Let's not forget the main scope of the thread which was collecting pictures!!! Please post them! I will do with mine this WE... A true NON-WINNER CIRCLE!

[Chris in Japan]

Assessment of an HD 47F

Dear all,

Following the idea of this thread, I am posting here a large amount of pictures of this HD 47F with the kind request, to those feeling to be able to asses it partially or completely, to judge it „electronically“, please.

I am doing this as a continuous effort to learn, therefore I highly welcome constructive critics on it. I imagine listing uncorrect & wrongly assembled, but any other remark will always be appreciated. (An AMCA judgement form e is impossible since I live abroad!)

To make the assesment easier, I can list already the „problems“ of this bike that I am aware of.

- Wrong seat (royalite cover)
- Missing damper (no way to find one)
- Messy wiring
- Wrong shifter gate
- Wrong shifter knob (but I have the right one – black ball)
- Wrong rear axle (but I have the right one – rectangular head)
- Of course fully wrong saddlebags
- The bike is parked until papers ready in Japan...

Many thanks and kind regards.

Chris.

[Chris in Japan]

[Chris in Japan]

[flat-happy]

hi chris---is the transmission a 3 speed or a 4 speed? they came either way and the gate is correct if you have a 3 speed. looks like the bottom plate may be all that's missing on the steering damper? if so i have one for you. if the transmission is a 4 speed i have a shift gate also. shift know is a correct period accessory. let me know what else you are missing. i have sent parts to japan before no problem

[William McClean]

Chris,

VERY Cool machine !!

Thanks for the pictures and for braving the Cyber Judges

[Chris in Japan]

hi chris---is the transmission a 3 speed or a 4 speed? they came either way and the gate is correct if you have a 3 speed. looks like the bottom plate may be all that's missing on the steering damper? if so i have one for you. if the transmission is a 4 speed i have a shift gate also. shift know is a correct period accessory. let me know what else you are missing. i have sent parts to japan before no problem

Many thanx, f-h! The gear box is a no-reverse-3-speed one that I believe to be correct for the mid compression F models, intended for duty.

The shifter gate I have been told to be anyway incorrect because of the arrows at each side of the neutral and no-OHV length of slot.

Regarding the damper, I am afraid that with exception of the handle and the upper nut, everything is missing. This means rod, spring, friction plates, star plate and long armed anker to the frame!

[RichO]

Dixon period modified awards

Dear Mr. Chris Haynes, There is a Chapter award for Peoples Choice given out at Dixon but it shouldn't be confused with the National period modified Awards that are also given out. Even though the period modified up for the National awards are not always judged by a whole team of national judges at least a few of them on the panel are and the National criteria is followed. I know because i make the chapter awards and the national awards are made by someone else. Maybe this will relieve Mr Cotton's mind about the cheapening of any National awards given.

[T. Cotten]

Dear Mr. Chris Haynes, There is a Chapter award for Peoples Choice given out at Dixon but it shouldn't be confused with the National period modified Awards that are also given out. Even though the period modified up for the National awards are not always judged by a whole team of national judges at least a few of them on the panel are and the National criteria is followed. I know because i make the chapter awards and the national awards are made by someone else. Maybe this will relieve Mr Cotton's mind about the cheapening of any National awards given.

Rich!

As a complete outsider to the judging system, only observing it as it hits my industry through my customers,

I really, really fail to take relief by your information at all.

With all due respect to you, and a system that I wish to succeed,..
You fan my fears.

"Confusion" between serious and vanity awards is not controllable.
Don't open that pretty box.


...Cotten

[Chris in Japan]

Sorry for the inconvenience - I got advised that the pictures were too heavy, therefore I took them away and repost them here below in JPG and in a slightly lower resolution.

Any remarks about incorrect parts would be highly appreciated - I welcome all critics with the single exception of the one of not being ridden (still no papers in Japan...).