The Non Winner Circle

[Chris Haynes]

Approx 8900 original miles...1 repaint...authentic radio gear (minus 1 right-angle fitting under the rear box).Dale

Sadly, if it is a repaint it can never win Senior First.

[bill campbell]

winners circle repaint

My Junior First that can never be a Senior because it was repainted.

hey chris check out page 75 of amca mag vol 48 # 2 (the one with the indian hacksaw motor on the cover) after a repaint tom is still putting his bike in the winners circle

[Chris Haynes]

I assume the picture on the left is the way it currently looks. I think that is a great looking bike and I'll bet it's fun to ride.

You haven't ridden an old Ironhead Sportster lately have you?

[Chris Haynes]

hey chris check out page 75 of amca mag vol 48 # 2 (the one with the indian hacksaw motor on the cover) after a repaint tom is still putting his bike in the winners circle

I don't see how Kevin would allow that.

[Blupacer]

1966 xlch

Have had this dilemma since 2001, when I finished my CH. I'm 3rd owner and all parts are original. Had 13000 original miles,but had rattle can black paint job, 4" over front tubes,king/queen seat. Got original Hi-Fi blue front fender and all model buddy seat with bike. I Rebuilt wheels and installed new Avon tires. Repainted sheetmetal to match '66 HiFi blue and Birch white. Frame paint and wiring all original. I call it my "preservation" and have never had it judged, because I didn't think there was any point. Would attach pictures from my computer if I knew how!!

Steve

[kval]

I don't see how Kevin would allow that.

Chris
that picture is something the editors had, the bikes might not be Winners Circle
Cotton
both those bikes can be entered, if anyone at any meet refuses to let you enter them find me and it will be fixed.

for the record: Period Modified is NOT judged for points like original or restored. a team of host chapter members look the bikes over for what would have been done in the time period of the bike + or - 10 years, they look at workmanship and how everything fits. (a 49 Harley should take me back to the 40's or 50's in appearance) this was another thing I fought for, to bring out more of those beautiful bikes I remember from my youth

[Chris Haynes]

Have had this dilemma since 2001, when I finished my CH. I'm 3rd owner and all parts are original. Had 13000 original miles,but had rattle can black paint job, 4" over front tubes,king/queen seat. Got original Hi-Fi blue front fender and all model buddy seat with bike. I Rebuilt wheels and installed new Avon tires. Repainted sheetmetal to match '66 HiFi blue and Birch white. Frame paint and wiring all original. I call it my "preservation" and have never had it judged, because I didn't think there was any point. Would attach pictures from my computer if I knew how!!

Steve

There should be a class for preserved machines.

[T. Cotten]

Weenie-bite trophys, booby prizes, and honorary awards are great.

They do not compromise the legitimate judging.

But when un-judgeable classes are dreamt up, and rules are made up on the spot, no matter how separate these contests are intended to be from the national points system, they still reflect badly upon the meaning and value of the serious awards.

A limit of a ten-year spread on parts on a 'period piece' isn't a realistic criteria, it's a blatant and arbitrary contradiction of real history.
My '37 motor unearthed with a '49 frame defaults immediately (although the "winner" in the contest that refused me was a Knuck street-chopper with a modern Softail Springer).

The AMCA was founded to preserve history, not to revise history conveniently for vanity's sake.
Chapter awards must not dilute and discredit national awards!

Just another opinion from outside of the pavilion,

....Cotten

[kval]

Weenie-bite trophys, booby prizes, and honorary awards are great.

They do not compromise the legitimate judging.

A limit of a ten-year spread on parts on a 'period piece' isn't a realistic criteria, it's a blatant and arbitrary contradiction of real history.
My '37 motor unearthed with a '49 frame defaults immediately (although the "winner" in the contest that refused me was a Knuck street-chopper with a modern Softail Springer).

The AMCA was founded to preserve history, not to revise history conveniently for vanity's sake.
Chapter awards must not dilute and discredit national awards!

Just another opinion from outside of the pavilion,

....Cotten

Cotton
after ALL you have done for our sport, your opinion is valued!!
and you will find our "+ or -" is very loose. if you ever decide to bring those bikes out again, make sure you find me(I would like to put a face to the name) and see those bikes

[rbenash]

Sadly, if it is a repaint it can never win Senior First.

We don't neeeed no steeenking firsts

You should be proud of that bike - it's awesome. Wish I could see it in person. Just beautiful. Looks like you've done a nice job keeping it original as possible.

Are those the original boards though? Look chromed from the photos.

[William McClean]

Repaints in the Winners Circle

Hey Kevin,

By reading this string, I get the impression that No repainted machine can be in the Winners Cirlce. Is this correct?

Even if judged as a Restored machine it could never make the Winners Circle ?

Could you please clarify ?


How was your European Vaction ?

[T. Cotten]

William!

The way I understand it, a restored machine MUST be repainted!

More true history has been destroyed by "restoration" than shall ever be preserved.

Uh,... Kevin,
Why did you selectively delete this passage from my quote?
"But when un-judgeable classes are dreamt up, and rules are made up on the spot, no matter how separate these contests are intended to be from the national points system, they still reflect badly upon the meaning and value of the serious awards."

Serious AMCA judging is presumed objective, and supported by research and evidence: *Almost* scientific!
But the possibilities of "Period Modified" or "Preserved" classes are infinite.
Judging such conjured classes would be entirely subjective, and confused by every personal prejudice possible.

Please do not reduce an AMCA award to mean little more than a Rat's Hole trophy!

...Cotten
PS: Don't look for me to need any judging soon, as I do not wish to re-write my machines' provenance just yet...
Its my customers' investments that I worry about.

[William McClean]

That was what is confusing me.

How can the sheet metal be repainted and it Not be a Restored machine ?

It has been a while since attended a judegs seminar and I see the judgess handbook has changed considerably from then.

[rbenash]

Well the rub is this. Looks like there are two classes if you don't count period modified. Original and restored.

Needs to be something in the middle - is that what preservation is supposed to mean?

I am really trying to keep the keyboarding down and keep things to the point because I know that hundreds of folks have been through my experience. I have what I will call an "heirloom" bike that has been in the family since I was a kid and before that I know the owners.

The bike had relatively little mods over the years, a couple were intrusive (I.E. pinstriping and drilling into the original sheet metal, but not repainted). As well as period dresser mods that compromised over time the reliability of electrical systems.

The original parts that were pulled by previous owners (not my Father) were lost due to divorces and deaths, etc.

I collected NOS/Factory OEM parts for 10 years to bring the bike back. So basically am doing a complete teardown, refurbishing of all subsystems (engine, trans, suspension, electrical and seating). Sheesh - do I take the bike all the way down and not paint the frame? Do I put back the compromised wire harness? Do I not clean parts/surface during engine, trans, shock, fork tear downs? Do I not repaint the 1 year starter motor and generator while it's apart for rebuild? Etc, Etc.

If the original exhaust system (chrome) is rusted and discolored, should I not replace it with factory OEM (replacement?) chrome exhuast if I have been able to find the parts? Heck the bike is down - this is when you do this stuff right? Do I really need to paint those exhaust parts silver just to avoid a points hit? I have 3 quarts of original Hi Fi blue factory paint that I will use to repaint a complete set of sheet metal that I found for the bike. It will have a perfectly color matched and baked enamel "factory" finish when I'm done

Guess it's a restoration, eh?

Might never get to winners circle - but that's really not the point. Going to run it, document the effort and pass it on. This is going to be a 65 FLH saved from "remuddling". My son will inherit it from me and I will ride it until I pass on. That's the ultimate goal. Judging is secondary and will be feedback for me in terms of how I best met accuracy in representing the model/year. I can pick and choose what changes I am willing to make to get it to that winner's circle or not - up to me in the end.

I am going to enjoy riding this bike - that's a certainty.

I have ridden it for 5 years until I decided it was time to stop and get all the work completed. And use that parts collection.

I know this - I am going to have a blast posting pics here so the experts can pick it apart and tell me what to expect

In the end - I'm not doing anything different than hundreds of folks before me have gone through and probably had to work harder at given their marque, model, vintage and budget.

[Chris Haynes]

Cotten is correct.
A restored machine must look as if it just left the factory. I have seen perfectly restored machines sporting very nice used speedometers. The fact that these speedometers were very nice did not exclude the fact that they had not been restored to new condition and the bikes got gigged.
Another confusing thing is when you see a restored machine with a fresh seat on it and the owner has distressed the new seat to make it appear old and used. What is with that logic? Did new bikes come with old seats? Of course not.