Market price of OEM parts

[Robert Luland]

And the space to put them in!

[Lonnie]

As a sidenote, I have a NOS '47 tank with right-hand shift. It uses the '46-style right-side gate so apparently H-D did not figure it was cost-effective to update the right-hand gate in '47 to match the standard left. Parts came off Ebay, quite reasonable by any standard actually. Many thanks to Jerry Wieland, Dave Bustamante, Rory Clark and Hippy (rstalings).

I don't know if there was ever a '48 or later pan with the right-hand shift.

Lonnie C.

[BNSONS]

I agree completely Eric. Heck….. Hope nobody thought I was talking about anyone here. I was referring to some local guys around these parts that are only grabbing up parts when they know they can make a profit reselling them later. Then these same guys complain about how much it is costing them to buy parts which they just intend to sell to the highest bidder. What a vicious circle they have created. In the mean time guys like us who could really use those parts can only stand by and watch it all happen. Gee’s.. now I’m starting to sound negative to. Enjoy the week-end!

Steve
It is indeed a vicious circle. But who is really to blame? There is no end to pointing fingers. I started buying parts 30 yrs ago because I enjoyed old motorcycles. That is what I chose to spend my cash on. Now a life time later after seeing so many friends pass holding on to there piles. I don’t want to die with this stuff. I also have bikes to leave my sons. But I refuse to dictate to them from the grave what they should do with their bikes. They already have a life time of memories from me. Let them do as they see fit. Most people that complain about ebay have nothing to sell or the inclination to buy. Does the restoration shop that builds a bike sell it for less because they got a deal on parts, of course not. Does a private person that restores his bike & gets amca awards not mention them when he sells his bike, of course not. That wouldn’t be good business. Everybody longs for “The good old days” but taking everything into account they really weren’t that good. Enjoy your life, family & friends. It’s later than we all think.
Dave

[Dave R]

Why the aforementioned negativity? THIS is why...

From the L.A. Times Business section...



COLLECTING
Vintage motorcycles find traction in soft economy

Bonhams & Butterfields


By Susan Carpenter
May 9, 2009
They leak, shake, rattle and spark -- and sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The rarest of rare vintage motorcycles, these decades-old machines are challenging to start and difficult to ride. Yet they are becoming more expensive to purchase despite -- and some say because of -- the down economy.


For years, ultra-obscure bikes such as a 1936 Crocker Twin or a 1907 Curtiss V-8 were collected by a small handful of moneyed gearheads. They had such deep appreciation for the unique designs and temperaments of these machines that they'd willingly use their shins as heat guards, repurpose their feet as brake shoes and consider it a deal to pay tens of thousands of dollars to experience such evolutionary technology.

Now, they're paying six figures. And the price increases are happening even as the market for new motorcycles is tanking.

More collectors are getting into the market and driving up prices for rare motorcycles, many of which have doubled or tripled in value in as many years. They're fueled by a sputtering stock market that has investors putting their money into hard goods, a weak dollar that's drawing European buyers and vintage car collectors who see historic bikes as a significantly less expensive fulfillment of their multimillion-dollar desires for ancient pistons and camshafts.


"Good machines have been performing well over the last few years, and prices are still on the ascent," said Mark Osborne, head of the motorcycle and motorcars division at Bonhams & Butterfields. The English auction house is offering about 70 vintage motorcycles at this weekend's Quail Motorcycle Gathering in Carmel, Calif. The event will offer an additional 115 bikes for show on the lawns of the Quail Lodge.

Osborne noted that the most expensive bike ever auctioned through Bonhams -- a $383,400 supercharged Vincent Black Shadow -- was sold in October, just as the worldwide economy was diving.

"We put it down to the fact that people like to buy something that they can touch, smell and enjoy," he said. "They can get out and use these things. It's not like paper held in a bank that's sort of disappearing on a daily basis."

This weekend's show is the two-wheeler version of a car show called The Quail, a Motorsports Gathering, which takes place in August. It's the first of two esteemed car-centric events that are branching into bikes for the first time in their long and rarefied histories. In August, the Pebble Beach Concours will also include motorcycles for the first time in the event's 59 years.

"I've been with the Concours almost 25 years, and I don't think there's been a year that's gone by that somebody hasn't requested a motorcycle class," said Sandra Kasky Button, chairwoman of the Pebble Beach event. "We've always resisted the pressure and stayed focused on cars. It really is time."

The market for new motorcycles is down 30% so far this year, according to the Motorcycle Industry Council. And sales of high-production vintage bikes such as Harley-Davidson panheads from the '50s, '60s-era Triumph Bonnevilles and '70s Honda CB750s have softened along with the economy.

But the market for motorcycle manufacturers of the long-ago, lesser-known and mostly defunct variety has seen dramatic increases. Prices for Crocker, a Los Angeles-based marque from the '30s that's known to have produced a mere 39 bikes, have quadrupled in the last five years. Others that are bringing top dollar include the British manufacturer Vincent, original-condition bikes from pre-World War II American manufacturers and anything with a racing pedigree.

The 1957 Manx Norton ridden to victory by Brit Derek Minter is expected to fetch as much as $100,000 this weekend. The Vincent "Gunga Din" crashed in defeat by racer George Brown in 1948 could bring more than $200,000 at Pebble Beach.

"The factory race bikes, these seem to be the bikes that get people's attention and seem to draw the most amount of money right now," said Jeff Ray, executive director of the Barber Vintage Motorsports Museum in Birmingham, Ala.

The museum, which owns 1,100 motorcycles, is on the hunt for more but is waiting for the market to settle.

"There's a saying in collecting motorcycles: 'You never pay too much, you just buy too soon.' If a 1915 Harley-Davidson twin was offered 10 years ago at $150,000, people would have thrown rocks at the guy and told him he'd lost his mind. Well, one just sold for $165,000 in January," Ray said. "We're putting our hands in our pockets and standing on the sidelines and watching."

Don Whalen, a collector in Monrovia, is taking a similar stance.

"My partner and I used to buy 10 to 12 bikes a year," said Whalen, 63, who for the last 40 years has been collecting primarily pre-1920 motorcycles from the dozens of American manufacturers that existed at that time. "Now we buy two or three or one, if it's an important one."

Of the 160 bikes in Whalen's collection, about 30 came from Otis Chandler, the former Los Angeles Times publisher who was an avid motorcyclist and collector of exceedingly rare, high-end motorcycles. After his death in 2006, the auction of his dozens-strong collection provided momentum to a market that was already gaining speed.

The current craze has its seeds in the Guggenheim's Art of the Motorcycle show that toured the world in the late '90s. Showcasing hundreds of bikes from motorcycling's history, the exhibit broadened the public's view of a sport that, at the time, was dominated by Harley-Davidson cruisers and Japanese sport bikes.

The Art of the Motorcycle was also the inspiration for Legend of the Motorcycle, an annual showcase and auction of premium vintage bikes that started in 2006. The event further raised the profile of exotic, two-wheeled machines that founder Jared Zaugg said have been "giving men instant sex appeal since 1869."

susan.carpenter@latimes.com

[c.o.]

Wow Dave, that was an eye opener! I've known for quite awhile that my favorite obsession..err..hobby was being infiltrated by the rich and famous but that really put things into focus. For those that got into the game early enough, there is sort of a "what's your problem?" attitude. But for the ones that got in the gate just before or hopped it after it closed are standing at the back of the line watching their passion go beyond arm's reach. It can get frustrating watching prices go up and up because Joe Millionaire and Jim Billionaire are fighting at auction over that 1914 Harley or Cyclone or Crocker or whatever "rare" Americana it may be. Steve indicated that we should be in it for the fun and he is right. It's gonna take a helluva lot more than high prices to discourage me from old motorcycles. I'll continue to watch and marvel how the trend keeps changing and hopefully scoop the odd "good" deal. Some of my bikes may never be completely original because I can't afford that thousand dollar air cleaner cover but I'm going to ride them and enjoy them just the same. The only time I really get discouraged is when I realize that I may never afford that "Silent Grey Fellow" but for now I choose to believe I'll have one someday and it will get figured out somewhere down the trail. I love old motorcycles for the bikes and the link to the past. Some people are into bikes for that reason and make money from them as well and that's fine. I do however resent just a little bit the fellas that buy and sell them as stock options and continue to drive the motorcycle market beyond the common man's reach..... nuff said and if it sounds to you like I'm whining then ya read it wrong! It is what it is.......

[Barry Brown]

bonhams blows

[Ohio-Rider]

Thanks for posting that Dave. It sure confirms what we have been discussing here. Money talks and, well you know. I'd better get me a comfortable pair of shoes. I only have 3 old HD and have reached the point with each of them that I have to accept I'll never be able to return them back to their complete glory as on the day they where made. They each run and ride just fine though even if there is a horn missing here and a wrong air clearer there, ect,ect...

Hey Cory, Forget about that Silent Grey Fellow and come on over to the dark side. Lots of good old British bikes can still be had at an affordabe price. And finding parts is easier and much less expensive. -Steve

[flat-happy]

prices are high enough

ok well then i think it is time a few of us put our heads together and started building REAL motorcycles again. if they could do it in 1900 with only a little experience with buckboards surely we can come up with something better with all the experience and tools we have now. if you have checked the prices on cylinders and heads that have been taken off new bikes you know they can be bought for a song or even free. lets come up with a way to use them that is outside the box. if someone made a set of crankcases that you could bolt four evo or twin cam or 883 cylinders and heads on and maybe use a ford pinto crankshaft i would buy them and have a nice inline four for cheap. we don't need the big companies to do it for us. wouldn't that motor look sweet in a 1913 henderson chassis??? lets go racing again!!!!

[c.o.]

Hey Cory, Forget about that Silent Grey Fellow and come on over to the dark side. Lots of good old British bikes can still be had at an affordabe price. And finding parts is easier and much less expensive. -Steve

Steve, thanks for the idea. I can tell your a fixer. I tried the British thing for about ten years and it just didn't do it for me. I'm rid of all but one of my Brit bikes and still have a few boxes of parts I should pass on to someone who needs them. There's just something about the early American machines that I just can't shake. Can I make sense of it? No. Is it logical? No. Is it practical? Definitely not. It's just the way it is. The dream is for the early Harley but I could get sidetracked by a Merkel, Excelsior, Thor etc..etc...

[HarleyCreation]

The Good Old Days!

In 1971 I bought two non-running Big Twins (1941 & 1949) for $150, combined them (a mistake) and made a chopper (photo above), kept the stock parts and in 1974 went back to stock (early Hydra-Glide). My next bike was a 50FL basket for $200 (that came with a free 1919 Indian twin motor!) That 50FL became my awesome winter sidecar machine with reverse gear, adjustable fork, winter windscreen, etc. In 1971-73 running Knucks & early Pans were $300 and up in the Midwest and then started going up and up and up in price. My VL cost me $35! 45 baskets were dirt cheap and hardly anybody wanted one. They looked old fashioned and were too slow, but I liked them anyway!

My worst mistake was passing up a beautiful stock 47EL for $400 all rebuilt and perfect in original paint. It seemed too much at the time as I was a poor college student and already had two running 74s and a 45! How many bikes did I need?????

Those of us who can look back upon those days when old Harleys were common and relatively cheap have good memories indeed. Today the good deals are elsewhere (my minty '85 K100 BMW cost me $2000).

[parkerize]

I have been at this old crap for over 30 years, started with my Dad, he rode a police servi as a policeman and the fun started. Fortunately I purchased several original machines over the last 20 years that I still have and gradually bought a few more over the years as my passion for our hobby grew. Of course the machines I purchased in the last 5 years were certainly a hell of a lot more than those in my early collecting years. Never really sell much nor complain about the escalating prices, like anything else, prices go up. Only difference for us is, well, the price increases have not been at the same rate of inflation! What's my point? Its simple, while I wish prices were lower, the fact of the matter is our hobby has grown in popularity immensely, and as a result prices, against low supply, continue to rise rapidly. Sure there are the few stockbroker types that really are clueless and buy and sell and potentially drive prices higher. But than again there are just serious collectors and enthusiasts, clearly not all millionares or even wealthy, that have a passion for our hobby. More passion with more people fuels prices. Now I'm not intending to criticize any of the previous posts, seriously, but if we really look at what's happened and we are real purists for our hobby, maybe we should be happy that something we have enjoyed for so long is now being enjoyed by so many more people, at the expense, unfortunately, of rising prices. I'm not joe millionaire so believe me the fact it now takes me years to find original paint parts is frustrating, especially when someone else is able and willing to pay so much more than I can. But nonetheless again its all because so many others are now passionate about what we have loved and shared for countless years. Do you really think joey millionaire is the guy who can tell a repainted early cycleray headlight on ebay from a repainted one, an early brake light switch, original non vented open seam seats, brazed bars from welded, etc? I really dont think so. I think its guys like all of us, and new passionate enthusiasts like us (albeit some not in the hobby as long), that are driving prices higher because we love this crap... I'm gonna keep working, overtime, so I can continue to finish my projects, buy a bike here and there when I can afford it, and most of all, keep it fun.

[Paps]

Excellent observation Bro !!!!! And don't forget the devaluation of currency as a price dictator. In 1957 you could buy a brand new Chevy for 1200 bucks. It took you all damn year to earn the 1200 though. Paps

[c.o.]

Well Mr. parkerize....... looks like you put things into another perspective. The more of us obsessive bike freaks there are the more we're fightin' for the same original parts.....yup, you've certainly made a valid point.... I can dig it...

[Greg H]

Talking about prices, here is an auction worth as an example...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...=#ht_500wt_814

Kind regards,

Chris

Closing price $1375........... Jeeez

[Dave R]

Here's an interesting link that ties in with this thread...


why your speedometers are $1200, and air cleaners are $1300...and probably going higher...


TOP 20 MOTORCYCLE PRICES AT AUCTION


from Paul d'Orleans blog, "The Vintagent" if you've never seen his site, check it out. Hours and hours of good reading... (hope this is okay to link to you Paul)


http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/200...torcycles.html