Dull nickel plating vs. electroless nickel

[silentgreyfello]

I have always had parts for my early bikes done in dull nickel because I somehow got that in my head that is what was originally used. I was talking to a guy who indicated that electroless is the way to go because it is much less expensive.

He also thought that the EN would be better for cylinders, as it is much thinner and wouldn't have to worry about plugging any of the orifices. I don't know if this is such a great idea. comments?

Has anyone compared parts for color or sheen? Do they look comparable?

Thanks

[T. Cotten]

I have encountered fresh electroless that is everything from bright "silver" (usually on fasteners) to bright "gold" (usually on castings).

The great advantage for either application is that it adheres everywhere evenly, even upon threads or between fins. Electroplate builds up upon high spots and can often miss the low.

....Cotten

[exeric]

The plater I use can control the electroless process and give me dull to bright nickel. I segregate my parts for bright and dull finishes and also, I do all of my own polishing so I have control over the finish as well. Electroless is the only way to go on cylinders in my opinion. It seems to get down into the recesses of the fins and has an even covering overall.

Nickel plating can be a controversial topic with some restorers. Years ago a plater/collector in our club contended that all plating prior to WW2 was gray nickel. After the war, chemicals were added to nickel baths to make the nickel bright so that chrome layers on the nickel would come out brighter. This saved a lot of time for automotive platers and became an industry standard. I don't doubt this is true but if you ever saw one of his plating jobs you would be shocked. The finish was literally dull gray with no shine at all. Again, I don't doubt that some parts were plated this way because some parts just needed protection but handlebars, shifter handles, and other "show" parts should be bright. I've had a fair amount of Excelsior and Henderson stuff that was either NOS, or well preserved and the "show" parts were always bright and reflective. In the Excelsior factory tour book there is a picture of workers polishing handlebar sleeves. All of the factories wanted their parts to shine because that's what helped to sell the bike.

[pete reeves]

I was once told by a plater that the early process involved polishing the part again after it had been plated as it came out of the tank dull now they have brighteners in the mix so the part comes out Bright.

Pete Reeves 860

[Paquette]

One of the keys to brightness of nickle plating is polishing the part before it is plated. A high polish yields a bright nickle finish. I have used electroless nickle plating for small scale parts for years and find it as easy as parkerizing ( a bit more work to get the brightness). I buy my supplies from Caswell plating and have been very satisfied with their products--Michael--6671

[T. Cotten]

Patti who?
Is Patina is that lonely gal at the other end of the bar?

Or maybe what's in the attachment?

...Cotten

[Knotthed]

I am wanting to get some nickel plating done for some 36 chief parts. Motor mounts, distributor elbow, front fork rockers, brake link bolts, intake manifold, etc..

Can anyone provide some input on the type of Electroless that I should be requesting?

Here are some options;

High Phosphorus Electroless Nickel Plating Services

Bright Nickel Plating Services

I am sure there are many more options available and I don't want to do it twice.

Thanks.

[T. Cotten]

Knotthed!

Since this thread started, I have been convinced that not only did the various pieces of hardware vary greatly originally, but that no modern processes replicate them with any authenticity at all.

If it all matches, its wrong.

Of course I focus exclusively upon carbs and manifolds, and they varied greatly themelves, but absolutely nothing crossing my benches that has been re-plated to represent "dull", "flash", or "Watts" nickel, either electro- or electro-less, does any justice at all.

(Its only original once. After that, its all vanity...)

If we all could cooperate and collect a selection of original examples, we may entertain Quality Plating of Sterling Illinois to focus upon this very important issue.

....Cotten

[Knotthed]

While I appreciate that it is only original once and that we cannot duplicate it correctly today, I was just hoping for a suggestion of what most are using today.

The rust far exceeded the originality in my case.

I also suspect that nickel would dull or tarnish over time, similar to silver but much slower.

Even within the realm of Electroless nickel there are still many choices, some brighter than others.

I would hope that whatever I choose that it would offer superior corrosion resistance and an asthetic value as well. I would also want a process sheet to describe the process somehow, so that it could be repeated in the future.

There is such a wealth of knowledge in the club, I wish the club could put together a book for beginners - "Antique Motorcycles for dummies" per say.

It could offer the guidance to not destroy the history of the machine if appropriate, but could also give newbies some direction and best practices for things like painting and plating etc....There would not just be one option as that does not work for everyone. There could even be from super professional, down to backyard spray cans.

On a side note, maybe I will see if my local community college offers an automotive painting class - I could sign up and learn to paint while using my bike as the subject.

[exeric]

Every nickel part in this picture was electroless nickel plated. Most of it was done by an industrial plater, but I did some of it at home with a Caswell kit. The degree, and quality of finish is totally based on how the part is prepared (i.e. tumbled, glass beaded, wire brushed, etc.). I just used common sense and said; What would Excelsior do? There are photographs of the plating and polishing department at Excelsior and they did polish many of their parts prior to plating. You can achieve the correct look by doing what they did. To my knowledge, nickel is still 28 on the periodic table so that hasn't changed lately.

[Knotthed]

Eric,

Looks great!

Interesting comment on the prep having an impact on the outcome, perfectly logical.

"To my knowledge, nickel is still 28 on the periodic table so that hasn't changed lately. " - Classic!

Do you know if your plater used High Phosphorus, Mid Phosphorus, or Low Phos?

I was leaning towards High phos as it is supposed to give superb corrosion resistance.

[exeric]

D.J., if your plater can explain the purpose of phosphorus levels and what it's function is in nickel plating, I'd appreciate it if you could relay that. Electro plating has always fascinated me and I enjoy learning new stuff if it's not going to hurt my brain. I've been having nickel done for many years, and I have noticed that regardless of the reflectivity of your part when you first get it from the plater, that part will dull, and turn gray in a year or so. . . . Especially here in Florida. Nickel oxidizes. However, you can re-polish it, or an NOS part and it will be bright and shiny again. Of course there are many factors involved in all of this; such as the base metal, surface prep, surface texture, and plating thickness. Motorcycle manufacturers only polished the parts that enhanced the beauty of the bike. Most parts (like fasteners) were tumbled, or castings (like cylinders) were plated on the cast texture. There is no reason why a modern part is not going to look like an original part if it was processed in the same way the original part was processed. Of course that's my pragmatic opinion of nickel plating orphaned motorcycle parts that need love, and attention. I'll leave the ethics of that to others

[T. Cotten]

Just as well, Eric!

"Ethics" went out the door with the 'restoration' judging criteria.

....Cotten

[Knotthed]

I guess it depends on whether the parts are in Akaline or Acidic environments as to the benefit of the Phosphorus level.

http://www.surfinetek.com/electroles...essnickel.html


http://erieplating.com/electroless-nickel

Each type of electroless nickel has particular advantages depending on the application and type of nickel alloy.

Medium phosphorus electroless nickel (available)
•Very bright and semi-bright options
•High speed deposit rate
•Very stable
•The most common type of electroless nickel applied

High phosphorus electroless nickel (not currently offered)
•Superior corrosion protection
•Low porosity
•Non-magnetic
•Less prone to staining
•Pit-free deposits


http://microplating.com/index.html
High Phosphorus, 10-12% phosphorus.
Medium Phosphorus, 5-9% phosphorus.

The phosphorus appears to be needed to make the chemical process work.

[T. Cotten]

Before much more History is lost forever, Folks,..

I would like to post some attempts at photographing the real thing for reference, specific to carburetors, as it is all I have access to record.

First is a Schebler example where the interior has been perfectly preserved, while the exterior has "patinated":
NOPATINA.jpg
Next is a comparison of a Schebler and two Linkerts in different lighting.
Texture and depth of plating determined much of its survival and resistance to darkening:
FLASHNI.jpg flashni4.jpg

Note also that plating varied by model, as shown by these similar HX bowls: (Attached below. This site's format is as un-friendly as an alley cat, and just as full of bugs.)

And of course, much of the smaller hardware and findings were "bright", like the bowl on the right, rather than "dull". Thus if all the hardware matches, its molested.

Vanity should not rule over History,

....Cotten