1908 H-D Racer on Ebay: Rare Article or Total Fake?

[HJahn]

I agree that this is outright FRAUD and shocking to witness. It also makes Ebay look bad as a venue for crooks. I asked a friend who does a lot with ebay H-D stuff and he said that if you "interfere with the bidding process" you'll get kicked off of Ebay. They must run Ebay on the "let the buyer beware principle" and figure if you're stupid enough....well....

On the other hand, the bike simply is NOT what it is described to be -- not even close. I sure feel sorry for the guy who bought this thing. No lawyers in the house to comment????

The James/Douglas story from AFJ is another interesting one. With the ever higher prices these things are demanding and the poor state of knowledge we'll be seeing more and more of this crap no doubt.

With the H-D 100th the demand is obviously there as this worthless POS demonstrates....

[HJahn]

Looking at the photos of this $17,000 con-job again, the frame is not H-D. The fork is not H-D. The carb is not H-D. The tanks are home-made. Can't identify wheels, crank, fenders, or handlebar.

The only major parts that look H-D may be the cylinder and cases. The cylinder looks about a 1923-24. But with the exhaust port in the back, it looks to be a rear cylinder. If so, then the sparkplug and inlet port have been welded/reworked to put the carb in the right place. The cases look vaguely H-D, but the ad copy states: "This number came off the old crankcase along with the Harley Davidson Milwaukee letters, both of which have been placed on the new crankcase. The new crankcase was put together by a small engine shop."

That number "4A33" sounds like a casting number or something -- not a serial number.

Oh yeah, best of all the head patent decal appears to be the "1949-1950" issue.

Some very bizarre "back-to-the-future" engineering going on here.

Looks to be some 1920s engine parts were magically transformed into a 1908 racer thru the wonders of eBay!

Any other observations?

28 photos of it here:

http://www.tpdigital.com/users/toac/harley/index.htm

[Earl]

Your "Back to the future" engineering comments also made me think about the HD Factory's own interpretation of some of their own early motorcycles, and magically changing "what it is" and "what it historically appears to be", into "what they want it to be"

[HJahn]

That sounds pretty darn intriguing there, Earl.

What do you mean exactly?

Sounds like a good thread starter idea to me...

I notice that in most of the books, early Harley history is covered like in one paragraph....no doubt the reason guys like this so-called 1908 racer get by with their rip-off projects.

[AFJ]

Intentional or Unintentional Faking?

In looking at the pictures posted of the supposed '08 H-D single racer, I note that the black tires have been painted white. Perhaps an attempt to make it look older or disguise the bicycle origins even further.

But quite possibly the bike started out as the same sort of hobby project as the "Winnetka Cycle" written up in the latest AMCA magazine. One person's hobby attempt to create a motorcycle "depicting a preteen motorcycle". No crime in that. After all, 18 years ago Daimler made a number of modern copies of the 1885 Daimler motorcycle (which had been burned in a fire in 1902) for their centennial celebrations.

It seems that the person selling the "08 H-D" was not the person who made it. It is possible that the vendor was himself taken in that it was a very old original bike that he bought and now is trying to unload it on someone else and get his money out of it.

I did go to Ebay yesterday and in looking at the listings for 20 different classic bikes found only 3 which had fairly complete and accurate information about the particular bike being offered. These were 20 bikes whose make and models I was familiar with . Many had no serial number given. in some cases where it was given the number indicated that the bike was something other than what it was described to be. In some cases the written description did not match with the photographs and in other cases the pictures were so bad that it looked like the vendor was trying to hide something rather than try to show off the bike.

I guess the term "Caveat Emptor" still holds.

As to "Harley Racers" the first factory competition bike, the 1908 endurance model is shown with its rider Walter C. Davidson on page 22 of the 3rd edition of Harry Sucher's "Milwaukee Marvel" book. The "EBay H-D" bears little similarity to the genuine article so I suspect that the former was perhaps originally a "hobby replica" like the Winnetka, which subsequently got passed off to a somebody as "the real thing".

AFJ

[HJahn]

I think AFJ hit the nail on the head about this bike. That crossed my mind too but he expressed it perfectly. It looks like somebody had fun re-creating their loose impression of an early Harley using various old motorcycle and bicycle parts and and an old mailbox(?) for a gastank.

Then somebody had even more fun selling it for almost $17,000!

A person would have to be a real dreamer or very un-informed to mistake this thing as being 60% original 1908 Harley-Davidson.

I also looked at the photo of Walter Davidson and his 1908 "racer" in Harry Sucher's book and like AFJ said, it is clearly a 100% different machine -- no doubt about it.

PS: I think Sucher has Walter's name wrong in his book. Walter C. Davidson was Walter's son -- a 2nd generation Davidson. The Walter Davidson in the photo that Sucher calls Walter C. is the old man. That is, the original Walter Davidson who was the first H-D company president who did some early racing.

[B. Rodencal]

"A person would have to be a real dreamer or very un-informed to mistake this thing as being 60% original 1908 Harley-Davidson. " ...HJahn quote

"A" person? there were 44 bids! as E.E. Cummings once said "In any given situation there will be more dumb people than smart ones!"

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

KNOWLEDGE IS GOOD (Faber College Alumni)

There were 44 bids put in by only 13 bidders. Most all the bidders had less then 15 prior e'Bay transactions. The winning bidder had purchased two other motorbikes both under 100CC. Those two looked 'OK' as near as I can tell. A shame really.This person probably was being influenced by the additional comments that were 'added' to the description and were 'supposedly' from other knowledgeable people describing/providing info to help the 'seller' as to its origins. Yeah, sure! "Believe half of what you see and some of what you hear and with some luck and A GOOD DEAL OF PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE TO DRAW ON you'll probably walk away from such things.".. ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[AFJ]

Another Example

In the Spring '02 AMCA magazine (p.47) is another example of a classic motorcycle at auction not being what it was eventually being claimed as being.

This was an Ariel Square Four which was in an Ariel swing-arm type frame rather than the usual Anstey link - plunger spring type. Apparently it sold at Las Vegas for $10,000, Texas for $ 7,000 and then in California for $ 14,250. At the first two it was hinted that it might be a factory prototype, at the third it apparently was claimed to be a one-off factory prototype. This is what was printed in the AMCA magazine.

The serial # on the engine made it a 1956 engine - the frame number was a 1959 number.

Now the facts are that the last production Square Fours were the Mark II and these all had the Anstey link - plunger spring type of rear suspension from 1953 to 1959 when production ceased, even though the Ariel singles (except the Colt model) and twins adopted a swing-arm suspension from 1954 to 1959. During this time Mark III Square Four prototypes with the swing-arm frame and an Earles-type were tested but not produced. A prototype Mark IV Square Four with conventional telescopic fork and a swing-arm frame was built and tested as well and a further variant of this had the swing-arm frame with trailing link front forks. None of these were production models. Pictures and information on all these prototypes are available.

Was the bike which was auctioned several times for up to 5 figures an intentional faking of rare and possibly now non-existant prototypes? This was hinted at in the AMCA magazine.

It turns out that the situation is rather different. One of the flaws of the Anstey link frame on the Sqare Four is that it is really better for sidecar use than as a solo bike. There are always people who liked the Square Four motor but not the suspension. So in England there is a firm that will make you an Ariel Square Four with a swing-arm Ariel frame for better handling. And that is what this Ariel was - a bike (custom if you like) to the owner's specification and made in the mid-1990s.

It has gone frome the owner who had it built for his own pleasure to someone who has either decided to "improve the provenance" (for commercial gain) or who cannot differentiate between a bike made to look like a factory prototype once looked, and a genuine factory prototype.

It seems that Antique motorcycling is catching up with the regular antique and art fake market where "reproductions" or "in-the-style-of...... art" is made innocently enough for those who commission it - and then turned into "the real thing" by ignorance or chicanery in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

I, and quite a large number of other antique bike enthusiasts, recently attended a cold outdoor wrecking yard auction clearout which had advertised a "Canadian Army Harley-Davidson" was to be sold. So this had to be a WLC 45 or an ELC 61 right? Wrong! The auctioneer pointed to a mid-70s SX-175 encrusted with dirt and rust and missing a lot of parts; a model never used by the Canadian Army - at all. He was lucky he was not tarred and feathered. But his excuse was " Somebody told him."

Somebody who was not an expert.

AFJ

[Jim M]

Question

Just curious has anyone e-mailed the auction winner, or seller for that matter, and told them about the opinions expressed by us AMCA members? I wouldn't think it would hurt just to direct the guy or gal to this web site and the community forum. Would it?

[HJahn]

Somebody I know DID email the buyer after the end of the auction and warned him. But the buyer was very convinced from the ad copy -- brainwashed it seemed with more money than knowledge. Sort of a wheeler dealer type. The money had already been sent. (Although I think a good lawyer would have a field day with this one.) But the buyer thought he could get much more for it once it was fully restored to "conquers condition"(?) and wouldn't believe there is really nothing there to restore and thought he was being talked out of a good deal! Although he did come down out of the clouds a little bit, maybe because the bike fell apart in the truck on the way home...so I heard.

[HJahn]

Re: Another Example

Originally posted by AFJ


It seems that Antique motorcycling is catching up with the regular antique and art fake market where "reproductions" or "in-the-style-of...... art" is made innocently enough for those who commission it - and then turned into "the real thing" by ignorance or chicanery in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

AFJ

Your entire post was informative. Thanks. And this paragraph seems to sum up a growing problem.

This bogus 1908 racer sure proves it....

[HJahn]

Re: KNOWLEDGE IS GOOD (Faber College Alumni)

Originally posted by Hrdly-Dangrs
There were 44 bids put in by only 13 bidders. Most all the bidders had less then 15 prior e'Bay transactions. The winning bidder had purchased two other motorbikes both under 100CC. Those two looked 'OK' as near as I can tell. A shame really.This person probably was being influenced by the additional comments that were 'added' to the description and were 'supposedly' from other knowledgeable people describing/providing info to help the 'seller' as to its origins. Yeah, sure! "Believe half of what you see and some of what you hear and with some luck and A GOOD DEAL OF PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE TO DRAW ON you'll probably walk away from such things.".. ...Hrdly-Dangrs

You guys are good. The ad copy that accompanied this thing was very cannily written as if a great find had been made and backed up by experts. It did ring true -- although from looking at the jalopy it described it was obviously TOTAL 100% BS.

[mcarver]

1908 HD "racer"

I had quite a chuckle when I first saw the much discussed 1908 HD "racer" on ebay. At that time I believe there had only been one or two bids and reserve was not yet met. I am not an expert on pre-teens Harleys, but I could see immediately that this was a rank amatuer job at best. I realize there could be a few original fragments here and there, but it is obviously composed of recent bicycle parts, hardware store items, perhaps a mailbox, craft store supplies, rattle can paint (I really like the tires!) etc., etc.. I am slowly putting together a 1908 Indian myself and have so far made and purchased a few high quality reproduction or "repop" ( I agree, it rolls off the tongue easier than "repro") parts. I will never try to misrepresent as original equipment, despite the fact that these parts may not be detected as having been newly manufactured. What to do, if anything is a very difficult question. A failure to self police may very well bring legal experts and possibly law enforcement into the hobby/business of antique motorcycles in an unwanted respect. I suppose it does boil down to buyer beware.... we just need remember (and educate) that buying on speculation is dangerous and not healthy for the hobby or business in the long run. By the way, if anyone is interested I have a ship load of tulip bulbs, some waterfront property in Florida and some great high-tech stocks for sale!!
-Mike Carver
amca #3349

[Earl]

Just when you thought it was over..........

It's back !!!!!!!!!!

Check out ebay item # 2424652032