On Line Library

[Chris Haynes]

Hi Chris,
That's ashame. I don't even recollect who is on this on-line Library committee to tell you the truth. It was already rolling along when I got on board. The computor/scanner guy seems like a super nice guy though. I'm surprised to hear this.
I do know that we are working out a LOT of computor issues though, and they are swamped with that.
Hang in there, RF.

Fred,
Anything you would need from my collection I would be happy to scan and send. Time permitting. I only ask that something I give to the club for free be given to the members for free.

[redfred84]

on-line library

Hi Chris,
That's ashame. I don't even recollect who is on this on-line Library committee to tell you the truth. It was already rolling along when I got on board. The computor/scanner guy seems like a super nice guy though. I'm surprised to hear this.
I do know that we are working out a LOT of computor issues though, and they are swamped with that.
Hang in there, RF.

[jmanjeff]

Eric & all,
I'm sure there may be a more economical method, but until the cry-babies step up & volunteer, this is how it's done.
Respectfully submitted, Red Fred
AMCA # 5

Instead of calling us Cry-Babies you could have asked for Volunteers as kevin did for the forum you would find that there are a lot of use here that will help.
So now the ball is in your court Fred tell me how I or we can help..

[Chris Haynes]

until the cry-babies step up & volunteer, this is how it's done.
Respectfully submitted, Red Fred
AMCA # 5

I have offered my collection. I even sent them a scan of a complete 1950's accessory catalogue. I did not even receive a thank you for it.

[pete reeves]

Fred .
I don’t believe that any body is disputing the potential of the online library. Or that there are dedicated and hardworking people working on this project.

As with all new things and especially when computers are involved there will inevitably be some teething problems. But I think the main bone of contention is that members are going to charged to access a club facility which they feel should be FREE.

You cite the high costs involved in setting up and running this facility and the high cost of scanning the material as the reason why members have too be charged to down load and view material. Perhaps if some thing could be done to reduce these costs to the club the need to charge the members could be avoided.

Why not try to obtain funding from another source. The AMCA foundation springs to mind, possibly sponsorship or help from a company that has there own computer or web department. For example S&S sponsor and help the flat head power web site.

It would appear that trying to set up and program the charging system in it self is already adding too the costs and delays in getting the library up and running.

Why spend large amounts in travelling, labour and other expenses to scan collections when its likely the owner of the documents could scan them there self, then email or post a disk I accept that not every body has a scanner but this problem could easily be overcome by buying or supplying them with a loan scanner we could even pay for the documents to be scanned at local print shop or we could enlist the help of a local member who has a scanner.

The combined membership has a vast amount of suitable information ,some members have large collections some just a single document all should be encouraged to donate scanned copies to this venture. But I already know of some people that have large collections that would be willing to donate if the library was free but will not donate to a library that charges.

Obviously somebody has got to run the library and if it’s not a volunteer then it’s going too cost, but has there ever been any advertisement or request asking for volunteers?
If you don’t ask you don’t get.


Is there any long term plans for the literature and goodies that have been amassed after they have been scanned? If not perhaps they should be sold, possibly the proceeds of the sale could help offset some of the operating costs.

I make the above observations and suggestions as a concerned member who wants too see the library project prosper and achieve its true potential.

Pete Reeves 860

[exeric]

Better letter writers than myself have express their concerns about this library so we don't need to replay all of that. I think everyone agrees, the cost of setting up a virtual library would be secondary so long as the library is a success. Thus far it looks like a very expensive place to acquire information. Etherial downloads are not a coveted collectible.

All of that is beside the point. The point is; Why do we have to go through all of this B.S. to get a few answers from the board? In business, when someone has an idea they want to implement, they present the concept to the powers to be, they have a mission statement, a budget, materials needed, and a time line for completion. It may be the same way in the AMCA but none of that information seems to get past the BOD. We have this web-site that is viewed by many members and would be a perfect way to keep the membership informed. Often, when we do hear from a board member, it's to tell us to shut-up, and don't question the wisdom of the board. There are a lot of very computer savvy people in our club and some of them have presented good ideas. The AMCA should at least get ideas from the membership and using an open forum like this is exactly what forums are for. Matt Olsen has had great success with his project because he has used this forum. Kevin Vallentine has answered many judging questions here and helped streamline the judging process. Both of them have used this forum well, and most importantly, they have kept the membership up to date on new developments. As a member, I very much appreciate that.

Periodic library updates would be a good idea, and would avert this kind of hysteria and paranoia. Who knows, somebody might even learn something.

[redfred84]

On line library

Eric & all,
Perhaps Snakeoil summed it all up best in his last post. The online library is indeed meant for the betterment of ALL the membership. It is currently under the initial construction phases, and under the review of a committee amoungst the BOD.
George Y. has pretty much volunteered his collection for our scanning I believe. Bruce Lindsay also, amoung many others. I was present at the Milby Jones Literature Auction (before I was on the BOD), and witnessed the club aquire many lots of goodies also. Much more has been amassed since, for this on-line library process. All for the Good of the Club!
The main issue with the charge is; the cost of someone to professionaly scan, download, and enter this huge volume of material in a venue that lends only the members to access it, and not rummaging freeloaders. The hours, and costs involved with just the scanning is enormous, never mind keeping it secure to members only.
This may not be the fastest, most economical, or easiest way to descipher all this info, but until someone donates all thier time for free, I don't see anyother way. This virtual Library is still in its initial phase, and shows lots of potential. We realize that all the people can't be pleased all the time, but for petes sake, we're all trying to make this a top notch avenue to preserve and prolong the enjoyment of our passions.
One gets more bees with honey. Can we please support the hardworking people who are envolved with this project, and not try and burn them out before the fruits of thier labors can be harvested by us and the future generations. I'm sure there may be a more economical method, but until the cry-babies step up & volunteer, this is how it's done.
Respectfully submitted, Red Fred
AMCA # 5

[exeric]

I thought George Yarocki was a private, commercial enterprise with his own literature. That was my assumption. If that was club literature he was selling then that would explain why our club is continuing the tradition of buying things with our dues money and then selling it back to us for a profit. Was the Milby Jones literature part of the Yarocki collection ? I would still like to know where that stuff is and why it isn't on the web site. This is what people mean about accountability.

[Chris Haynes]

My question is this. The club has maintained a library for many years. As far as I know it was in the hands of George Yarocki. George also sold very poor copies of MC literature. Was this our clubs library stuff he has been selling? How has a member gained access the library in past years?

http://www.oldmc-lit.com/

[Rick Pope]

Moose, you are very close to the solution I've been pondering.

Some of us are likely to use the library quite a bit, while others will likely never use it. Members should gain access at a lesser rate than non-members. These things are obvious.

So, what if the membership could have their dues be structured in such a manner that for a small additional annual fee, you would gain unlimited access? Those who play, pay, up front. This way, the library folks know how much money they have going into each year, so can keep their costs lower.

Of course, my idea opens other cans-o-worms, but it may be worth considering.

[Glenn]

this thread could go on forever. why not have it that the members that are here at the present time get grandfathered in on the library and new members pay a small fee for access. that way everyone here that has already given is covered. I stayed at the holiday inn last night so this must be the solution

[Mark Arnould]

Get real

Come on people!! a cheap basket case runs 7,8 10 k and you all are to cheap to pay for a download give me a break!!!

I don't think it's anyones business what someone pays for a basket case. Let alone base a download price on it. Then to turn around and call them cheap. Thats alot of gull. I hope your not one of the ones asking members to let you copy their stuff for free, then turn around and sale it for a crazy price. Someone needs to take a hard look at theirself and see who's cheap.

[pete reeves]

A free online Library, if set up and run correctly with support help and encouragement from the membership would be a great resource for our club and Hobby.
Just think of how much information could be available on it after 3 or 4 years of operation and imagine how much there could be after 20 years or more.

Because of the requirement to make charges, I feel that in its current form our online library is handicapped and will not have the potential that a free online library could have

If the AMCA club can not afford to operate an online library successfully and without handicap perhaps the AMCA Foundation should be approached to finance it.

I can’t think of any cause more worthy of the AMCA foundations sponsorship.

Pete Reeves. 860

[Mark Woodstock]

Ohio Rider let's hope you still have a place to send your $30; any business that spends like this Club does will surely go broke. And the idea that the Board can do what they want is silly. If they do not do what the members want, then the members will leave.

It seems to me the Board wants the Club to grow and gain new members and make money every chance it gets. But when expanding and gainng new members, it is very short-sighted to forget about the existing members you have. And remember it's the members we have now that make this Club great, not the members we may gain in the future.

[Snakeoil]

I belonged (past tense) to another organization that was an enthusiasts driven org. You paid "dues" to belong and for that you got a card and number, a certificate and a subscription to a monthly magazine. When I joined I had no illusions that the org was anything but a business, intended to foster a sport for the betterment of the principals who owned the org. In time I learned that I really had nothing to gain by belonging and felt the principals who ran it were really only intersted in making themselves wealthy. I still participated in the sport, just gave up the few extra priviledges I had by being a "member".

You could take the complaints, comments, etc that have been voiced about this other "club" and just change the name and the offending or hot topic and the rest would all be the same.

For some reason, having the word club in the name of the org, a number of people seem to think this is a club in the true form where dues gives the member rights to vote on any and all actions of the org. I've said this before and so have others in this thread. But will say it again. IT'S A BUSINESS. Your dues are really a subscription fee. It buys you a magazine a card and number and some priviledges. Other than that you have no rights or say-so in how the org operates. I'll give you a another example. If you subscribe to American Iron, do you feel you have the right to tell Buzz Kanter how to spend the money he makes after paying the costs of publishing a magazine? This is the same thing. Arguing about how the club spends "members' money" is a waste of energy. It's not your money. You spent it with the org. It is their money. You got what you paid for and they own you nothing else. Whining about where the money goes is plain silly. It's really nobody's business but the guys who are in charge of the business.

The value of orgs like the AMCA is they bring consistency to things like hobbies, sports, etc. If you drag race, you probably belong to the NHRA. If you flat track you probably belong to the AMA. If you competively shoot, you probably belong to the NRA. None of those orgs let the member tell them what to do with the money they pay to belong. As a matter of fact, most of those orgs tell the members how to behave when participating in their particular sport. That's what the AMCA does. It sets standards for judges, judging rules, etc. It also provides a central focus for members to congregate to discuss their common interests.

I'm not saying you should or should not start a new club. That's up to you. But if you do, and you want it to be truly a club, with everyone in charge an elected official by the vote of the membership, and membership say-so in how the club money is spent, then be ready to do a lot of volunteering, filling in for people who get tired of working their butts off for no pay, lots of complainers and folks with suggestions and very few true workers. That is the nature of clubs in general. Not that you could not find a group of folks who would all work equally hard at first. But eventually, in time, the work will fall to a few dedicated individuals while the rest just "belong". I'm sure this is true in most if not all of the local AMCA chapters, which are indeed clubs.

I would offer up that you accept the AMCA for what it is, a business that keeps everyone sort of focused. That's a service and you should pay for that service. If you don't want to pay for scans of literature, then get together, set up a website and share literature for free. But keep in mind that there will be folks who will take that free stuff and turn around and sell it on ebay. So do you block them out? Maybe you charge dues to belong to the website. But that kinda defeats the purpose. Maybe you put a watermark on all scans so it ruins it for others to use for profit. I asked if anyone had any '47 knuck literature they would share with me, like a sales brochure. Somebody suggested I go to ebay. Nobody offered up anything. So if within this very forum where we are all supposed to be buds and helping each other out, why was nobody willing to scan something and send it to me? Why would you expect anyone else to do it on a global basis for free?

The only thing the AMCA should do, in my humble, opinion is listen to their subcribers and try to suit the needs of the majority. I say they "should" because it is just good business to listen to your customers. Because dissatisfied customers stop doing business with you. They should solicit sponsors for the website so more could be done with it. I still think a Gallery would be the place to put literature and photos for all the share. Since this is a member only site, it would be limited to AMCA members.

If the AMCA does not make a return on the investment for the library, my guess is it will just die a natural death, or they might sell the contents to some other entity that specializes in reprints of old literature like this. Personally, I'd love to see a place where we can all put whatever we have for others to share and hang the consequences. If someone wants to sell it, best of luck to them. Sometimes you have to pay a price to live in a free society, even when free means "no charge".