Never Ending Crocker BS

[exeric]

I abhor the hype such as was (and is) generated by the "Art of" and "Legends" type of Concours/Auction/Exhibition events since it paints an inaccurate picture of what many of our treasured old bikes really were made for. They were motorcycles made to be ridden for transport and pleasure - not artistic "icons" to be put on a pedestal and worshipped.

AFJ[/QUOTE]

You have captured my sentiments exactly. I hate seeing motorcycles turned into religious icons by recently minted collectors with tons of money and a penchant for snobbery. The Knucklehead is the most recent victim of this. I love restoration and I appreciate well done and accurate work but that can't be the "end-all" reason for collecting. These bikes have to be ridden. The most disturbing thing I have ever seen in this hobby was a guy who was actually crying because of a minor detail problem on his bike during judging.

I guess our passion for old bikes is a two edged sword. We always knew they were beautiful, wicked, and fun and tried to convince everyone to appreciate them. . . . . . . Now they do.

[Barry Brown]

I do think our bikes can be considered a sort of "Industrial Art" however I also think they should be ridden if possible and be in as perfect mechanical condition as possible. There is no reason these two views have to be mutually exclusive. It troubles me that I have never seen or heard a Cyclone run hard, kudos to the makers of the ohc Ex replica, it's the closest we'll get to that experience. The one time I attended the English Brough rally I was impressed that most owners rode in , some from as far away as Germany (600 miles each way), and that particular bike was a JEWEL of a restoration. The club members that I can think of quickly that do ride their treasures often and far are Bruce Lindsay , Frank Degenero, Frank Westfall , Dale Walksler , Jim Dennie and actually quite a few others come to think of it. Of course , unfortunately it costs money to insure and license bikes for the road so the rider /collector is going to need nearly as deep pockets as the icon worshipper. It is no longer a hobby for the impecunious newby.

[AFJ]

I do think our bikes can be considered a sort of "Industrial Art" however I also think they should be ridden if possible and be in as perfect mechanical condition as possible. There is no reason these two views have to be mutually exclusive. Of course , unfortunately it costs money to insure and license bikes for the road so the rider /collector is going to need nearly as deep pockets as the icon worshipper. It is no longer a hobby for the impecunious newby.

I think that the excuse of licence and insurance costs as the reason for keeping bikes "off the road" is of questionable validity. The jurisdiction, I live in is infamous for its high motorcycle insurance costs due to the mandatory "no-fault" accident benefits system. And yet it is possible for me to keep 5 old motorcycles licensed and insured for a total annual cost of $110 in license fees and just under $1,100 in insurance premiums - the insurance includes fire and theft coverage to an agreed valuation as well as $1 million liability coverage, uninsured and underinsured motorist coverage, accident benefits (wage replacement, supplementary medical not paid for by the government hospitalization plan, survivor benefits, funeral benefit, rehabilitation costs, etc.,) and collision damage caused by other at-fault vehicles.

The 5 bikes are 1927, 1933, 1938, 1967 and a 1978 "modern" bike for my day-to-day riding. I know people who pay more in motorcycle insurance each year for a single late model motorcycle than I pay for all 5 of mine.

Put another way, a regular weekly golf game at almost any decent course would cost me more in a year than my "antique" motorcycling.

AFJ

[Barry Brown]

Are they all with Dalton Timmis? MY new Harley cost more than that with Dalton Timmis. Seems like I better have a chat with them. Mind if I mention your name?

[Barry Brown]

is the "agreed valuation" the actual appraised value ? Mike Fitzsimmons has been trying to get me to sell my ss100 for years and says it is worth $250,000 ! If it was appraised at that would Dalton Timmis insure it at that for a few hundred? I doubt it. I thought only the Brits had an "agreed valuation" clause with their main insurer. What are your Broughs insured for?

[AFJ]

Are they all with Dalton Timmis? MY new Harley cost more than that with Dalton Timmis. Seems like I better have a chat with them. Mind if I mention your name?

Yes and no.
AFJ

[Barry Brown]

Ok, don't worry Al. I won't say anything about who I was talking to. I'll definitely be making an inquiry about licensing and insuring some of my bikes. I wonder if it would be a conflict of interest if I do my own appraisals as I have done about 50 or more for Dalton Timmis? Did you do your own Al? My 36 Indian 4 will be rolling this year and that's gonna be plated no matter what it costs. I'd love to have the ss100 on the road as well and that 71 Harley I bought at Paris last year and maybe my 49 Ariel square 4, the Douglas Endeavour, the Crocker and one of my Manx and maybe the 13 Harley ... on second thoughts scratch that one, too dangerous around here, hard to see deer with gas headlights. Too bad we can't have a "floating " license plate. Hey Pete if you are watching do you have that system in BC? It'd be worth moving there just for that.

[Early Iron MC]

Barry, I see your Crocker is in a VL frame are you running the VL fork? You also have a Koslow headed bike? Could you post some more pics. of your bikes/ I'm building a VL framed Knuckle bobber right now but I don't have the VL fork, I'm going with an XA fork I don't know how well it'll handle with that set up but I'm going to try it frist, how does your Crocker handle?

[Barry Brown]

I used a Sport Scout fork on the Crocker as I wanted to approximate the original look which is also why I chose the vl frame besides the fact that I am in love with vl frames. I think they are a work of art and as the Crocker originally used a single downtube all the better. That way I get the added benefit of the bulletproof HD trans and clutch instead of that crapola original Crocker setup. The bike goes around corners beautifully but I have to put a stronger spring in front as the old scout spring isn't up to the heavy Crocker powerplant. I can't see how you can go wrong with VL or XA forks. ( I had to remove that portion of the VL neck that sticks up to fit the Indian fork as the steering stem is shorter, I added tapered roller bearings as well)
I used a VL frame in the Koslow as well for the same reasons but with a heavily modified VL fork. I really had no chioce but to modify it as it was given to me bent nearly 90 degrees. Whoever did that did not survive! After straightening the forged legs I gusseted them top to bottom as I have seen done on Broughs that raced at Brooklands etc. Then of course I retubed the front legs. I copied my Brough "Castle" fork dampers and decided to go whole hog with a Vincent style twin brake setup using a balance beam, I am amazed how well it works . I laced a set of 19" VL rims to star hubs which I also modified to take sealed bearings. The front hub was the most fun as I had to cut 2 hubs in half and then weld the 2 approprite sides together for the twin brakes. This was all done in a lathe of course including the tack welding all checked by a dial indicator. 19 inch harley rims lace perfectly to 18" star type hubs. Hummers used near identical rims to the VL just smaller spoke holes so you can still find some NOS if lucky.
Now remember this all took place years ago and was done by a rank amateur in an old barn with junk from the local scrap metal dealers. I could bore you with a book about all the other stuff I did on the Koslow more than the Crocker. I just love playing around with this stuff. If there is any aspect in particular you want to know about just shout. One of my heros was JD John Cameron. He was the first to stuff a Crocker into a Harley frame and he told me it was a revelation and he could broadslide the bike ( 90" racing Crocker engine!) with both feet up on the boards. His frame was a JD unfortunately a little weaker than a VL so the drawback was a weak seat post area which kept fracturing. I have seen a few Knucks broken there just above the rear engine mount. Maybe an area of stress with strokers. Crockers always broke at the right lower frame rail just behind the cursed cast in gearbox. I welded in a vertical post like Indian scouts had to stiffen up the rear sections on both the Koslow and Crocker. It makes a good place to hang a tool box as well.

[Early Iron MC]

Thanks Barry, Great info. don't worry about boring me, I love old modified motorcycles, I'm very much into OHV conversions and putting OHVs in places they never where, back a few years ago I got a lot of crap for building bobbers and highbreads, now there called period customs, some guys like 'em stock and some like to play with 'em, and John liked to play with 'em and he was one of the best in my book. I never got to meet him, but I did see him and one of his JDs out in Sturigs back in the late '70s. Sounds like we share some comon ground, I'll try to post some pics of my EL VL project.

[c.o.]

I could bore you with a book about all the other stuff I did on the Koslow more than the Crocker. I just love playing around with this stuff.

Hey man, as long as you feel like typing this stuff out, then bore away!!

[Barry Brown]

A word of warning when constructing these "frankenstein" bikes is that stainless is heavy. I made just about everything I could out of it, great when done but had to do a lot of drilling to lighten it up and ss is murder on tooling. The single most difficult , or at least time consuming item was the primary chaincase.I'm running a double row chain and incorporated a nylon shoe adjuster, it works great. JD John and his gang liked to use hub caps as derby covers. Circa 1940 Ford trucks and some cars used a ss cap so that's what I used. I love original Flanders bars. A bit of trivia, Earl Flanders was born in Saskatchewan like I was but he had the smarts to move to LA early on and start his great company. Everyone asks where I got the little short grips that are on Flanders bars. I made them out of Delrin which is an incredible type of nylon that turns up easily in the lathe and you can machine it for an interference fit and hammer it onto the bar and it won't split. Taiwan ted sells the repop Flanders risers as straight original ones are impossible to find. With the repops be careful with the plating as it will flake unless you carefullu radius the edges where the clamping effect takes place . I always did this and never had a problem but another well known local chopper builder alwys has chunks of chrome falling off. Of course the better way is to strip the chrome and do a proper triple plate job.
Corbin speedometers are as you know ridiculously expensive so I picked up a beautiful original look -a -like period tachometer for $20 at the Brookfield swap . I took it apart for cleaning and calibration and discovered a 1917 patent date, unusual for a 6000 rpm instrument! As luck would have it the company is still in business and I ordered a perfect right angle drive for it for $25. !

[koanes]

In the middle of all that interesting info is the mention of Delrin. I have been using it for drain plug washers, points post insulators, etc. It never would have occured to me to make my own grips. What a great idea.

[Perry Ruiter]

19 inch harley rims lace perfectly to 18" star type hubs. Hummers used near identical rims to the VL just smaller spoke holes so you can still find some NOS if lucky.

Not quite - Hummer rims are 36 spoke, VL rims are 40 spoke ... Perry

[sveger]

Crocker to Sweden

Having followed this Crocker thread with interest I can add some Crocker Info.
In the last issue 4-08 in the Swedish magazine "Nostalgiamagazine" there is an article on a recent Crocker purchased by two Swedes at an US auction, to be displayed in their private museum. Supposed to be the first Crocker in Sweden.
http://www.nostalgiamagazine.se/index.php
If one scroll down there is a picture showing some of the bike.
The story does not mention at what auction, for what price or who last owner was.
Anyone out there knowing any details??

Regards
sveger
Sverre K. Gerber