Modern Gasoline Pros / Cons

[T. Cotten]

Ken!

Me 'Tom' not 'Terry', so everyone just call me 'Cotten', please.

The 'cleaning' additives in fuels may well be the most digestive, so any benefits to our vintage machines remains to be judged over the long run.

As far as "releasing" the PEEK seal manifold service,
I have been encouraging serious shops around the world for several years to freely adopt this simple replacement of material with no other redesign required.
Beware that any commercial Indian supplier who may claim to have recently discovered and extensively tested the idea should be considered accordingly.

...Cotten

[Baytown]

Oops sorry Tom!

Good on you Cotton

[T. Cotten]

Politicks

Just to bring this thread back on top,
I shall commit a sin:

95%Ethanol/5%H20 is an excellent fuel for an internal combustion engine, BUT!..

Mixing it with petrol fuel not only destroys ALL economic practicality, it points a wiggling stink finger at the petro-lobbys for preventing its success for decades.

And now mixed fuel is sold in Australia?

I wouldn't dare to bring it up if it didn't concern our machines,... among other things.

....Evil Cotten

[cmoon]

Lead & Octane

I have always used a lead additive and premium (93) fuel in my bike. A guy I work with, who drag races on weekends, suggested going down to the local gas station and filling a couple 5 gal. jugs with "Turbo Blue" race fuel to use in my panhead. It is leaded and rated at 115 octane. At $5.45/gal. it's a bit steep but maybe an option for some.

I plan on trying it to see if there is any noticable difference in my bike.

They won't let you pump it straight into a licensed motor-vehicle as it is illegal for use on public roads.

I am not sure how available this fuel is around the US.
Here is a website with its specs: http://www.racegas.biz/turboblue.html


Carl

[Jerry Hatfield]

Reply to Cotten: The motorcycle that ran on regular had an overhead-valve engine. The bike was a Vincent Rapide owned by John Miller. The Miller bike ran 113 mph on high-test. The bike was later run at 121-plus on regular. However, most of the speed increase was no doubt due to Miller being coached by Rollie Free on how to tuck in. Rollie Free thought that IF (biggest two-letter word in English) the bike would run on regular without knocking that the speed would be slightly faster than running on high-test. The entire episode, including a $500 bet, is detailed in my book "Flat Out! The Rollie Free Story."

From Cotten: "Let me try to simplify Mr. Hatfield's anecdote about Rollie Free's use of low octanes for Flatties:

"Flatheads burn at a high optimum temperature: Lower octane fuels work well.
On the other hand, OHV's need higher octane fuels to burn at a lower optimum for their design.

"If you put high octane fuel in a low octane machine, it just goes out the pipe.
Too high of octane fuel can actually inhibit the machine from reaching its optimum."
__________________

[AFJ]

Adapting old engines to new fuels.

The advantage that regular grade leaded fuel had over high-test leaded fuel in engines that did not knock on the regular grade was simply that the Ethyl fluid (mixture of tetra-ethyl and tetra-methyl lead plus ethylene dibromide and ethylene dichloride lead scavengers) in the high test gas was slowing the "flame front" (rate of burning of the combustion charge) too much - resulting in a slight loss in the amount of power generated on each combustion stroke.

With the presence of a small percentage (5-10%) of ethanol in much of to-day's pump gasoline, it is important in many older motorcycles (pre-fuel injection ones) to adjust the ignition timing and carburetor settings -rather than relying on the original manufacturer's stated settings. This is because the alcohol is acting as an "oxygenate" or "oxygen donor" in the combustion process, thereby actually weakening the effective hydrocarbon fuel mixture and increasing the rate of flame front propagation (due to absence of lead). These two effects can lead to overheating of the engine due to too much ignition advance and weak mixture.

With motorcycles with manual spark advance and retard it can be found that when timing is set to the originally recommended amount of advance that the engine (using an alcohol-added fuel) actually runs better on a little less than full advance of the control twistgrip or lever. Similarly, if when running at high speed with a fuel with a small percentage of ethanol, closing of a a manual choke control shows an increase in speed and power then some experimentation with a larger main jet (larger main jet, raised needle, etc. on Amal type carbs) is in order.

It can be expected that a slight increase in power will result although fuel economy should be slightly less, due in part to the lower calorific value of the alcohol. But the oxygenated fuel will burn much cleaner than the leaded fuel as far as combustion chamber deposits - and the environment - are concerned.

Other fuel oxygenates such as methanol and MTBE (methyl tert butyl ether) will act in similar fashion to ethanol.

With the lower sulphur levels now becoming common in modern gasolines, valve stem lubrication can become more critical and some use of "upper cylinder lubricant", can help - especially on side valve engines which may not have pressure oil lubrication. I generally use a high quality ashless 2-stroke oil as a gasoline additive, but I understand that American riders usually turn to "Marvel Mystery Oil" (which is very hard to find here in Canada.)

AFJ

[T. Cotten]

Digestive fuels

Ethanol-blends are corrosive, as shown in the first attachment. This is a modern Linkert valve in summer blend Midwestern 'P4gas' (Shell Premium) after a season.

Note however, that the 'rubber' (viton?) tip has swollen.
When soaked in 95/5 ethanol (5% H20), no swelling was produced.
Some other additive has attacked the soft tip.

Shell advertises: "In fact, Shell gasolines contain more than two times the amount of cleaning agents specified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Shell V-Power, our premium-grade gasoline, goes even further, containing more than five times the minimum amount of cleaning agents required by the EPA."
No where is this compound identified, but a large Midwestern qwickymart chain (Casey's of Ankeney, IA) told me that they only added the Federally mandated IVD, or Intake Valve Deposit additive. Their regular fuel without ethanol shows little or no digestive qualities.

The most digestive fuels contain ethanol, so ethanol may augment the additive's effect.

Evaporation of equal amounts of the two fuels leaves visibly different residues. The Shell shows needle-like microcrystals.
Apparently this is the 'detergent' that not only prevents sparkplugs and exhaust pipes from "reading" like they used to do, has also resulted in tank sealers failing suddenly after several years of service (second attachment). This fuel can strip epoxy paints, shrivel seasoned powdercoating, and turn a footboard rubber into a permanent lasagna noodle.

Besides the deterioration of any soft parts in our fuel systems, and corrosion of the rest, we must consider the effect of contaminating the oil,.. not to mention our livers, kidneys, and lungs.

....Cotten
First attachment to follow; Apparently the format only allows one.

[T. Cotten]

Example of fuel corrosion attached.

....Cotten

[AFJ]

Ethanol-blends are corrosive, as shown in the first attachment.

I think you will find that the common alcohol in American gasolines these days is methanol rather than ethanol, which is, to some extent, why you are seeing what you showed in the pictures. The other factor will be the co-solvent which keeps the methanol mixed in the gasoline - this usually is some plastic-and-rubber-destroying chemical such as acetone.

The plastic floats on many '70s BMW motorcycle carbs show deterioration due to "alcohol" in the gasoline. A friend who tours extensively in the US had this problem and had to fit "fuel-proof" floats. but it appears that the problem does not occur with the BMW bikes which have only been run on the "Canadian gasoline". Of course for many years after lead was removed from Canadian gasolines the use of MMT (organic manganese) was still permitted, allowing lower levels of aromatic, (plastic-eating) octane-improving, hydrocarbons. The USEPA did not allow MMT in American gasoline after lead was reduced.

do you have any analysis of the fuel which caused the damage in the pictures?

AFJ

[T. Cotten]

AFJ!

I assure you it is ethanol, labeled as such upon the pumps.

Of course it makes no sense.

....Cotten

[AFJ]

Example of fuel corrosion attached.

....Cotten

Looks like water contamination resulting in the formation of verdigris.

But there must be some co-solvent to keep the alcohol mixed in gasoline and it is that which should be looked at as to fuel effects on rubber, plastic and fibreglas fuel systems.

AFJ

[T. Cotten]

AFJ!

No co-solvent is necessary as long as the ethanol is totally anhydrous.
(This is why the whole idea of blending ethanol with gasoline is an economic farce: Rectification takes more energy than the fuel produces.)

Anhydrous ethanol is extremely hygroscopic, however the sample corroded in a sealed bottle months later.

....Cotten

[mmoore]

34 c harley gas

page 3 in the riders handbook.....RECOMMENDED GASOLINE Benzol blended gasoline (about 50%benzol),Ethyl gasoline or other equally good "antiknock"gasolines are recommended as better motor fuels than straight gasoline. Straight gasoline can be used satisfactorily for ordnary service; however, a motor will run much cooler with little if any detonating ( heat knocking ), and will perform better under all service conditions, using antiknock fuel exclusively. this applies particulsrly to high compression motors.(end of quote so what follows is my rambling) knocking was a problem back then thats why the little sign on the side of the pump said it contains lead to help prevent that. some of us remember that it helped lube and protect the valves also. I got upset when they said it was only a octane boost and our bikes and cars did not need it. I remember in the early 70s when cars would need a valve job at 30,000 miles. I got tired of doing valve jobs. then they finally got better valves and guides and the problem went away. I know that lead is bad but a LOT of people paid so they could figure out what was needed to use unleaded fuel. we have e-85 here (85%alc 15%gas) available here I took some with a carb rebuild kit and soaked it this winter. almost 5 months now I dont see any problem yet even in the float bowl which has been soaking. Im going to let them dry out and check them again. I'm also trying to figure out how to line my tank with a thin layer of lead as a piece of lead was in it too. I also wonder if a baked gasproof finish like powercoat inside the tank might be the answer? last thing I do use marvel mystery oil in my bikes it seems to do good.

[mmoore]

AFJ!

I assure you it is ethanol, labeled as such upon the pumps.

Of course it makes no sense.

....Cotten

a guy working at a alcolhol plant in iowa last year was denied unemployment as he was found drunk at work. said he was cleaning up a spill. do a web search for this story as it was funny

[cheifrider]

carby

hey cotten !
just staterd servicing one of the chiefs for the upcoming season , and decided to check out the fuel system ,even though it had been gone through last spring . i dont know much about anhydrous and stuff, but check out the following pics and tell me what ya think caused this.

ps i bought a float from you last year for my 41 u , it works great ! are you cutting these for the 344 linkert also?if so i need a couple as the fuel expanded my old one so bad i think i may have tweeked it a bit getting it out of the bowl,
thanks ,tom c