1929 Indian Crocker

[Ohio-Rider]

This coming week-end there is going to be a local swap meet here and the promoters are running radio advertisement about it.

Amongst other things the radio announcement is stating that there will be a 1929 Indian Crocker on display this week-end. They are saying that it is the ONLY ONE there is in the United States. Can this be true.?

I’m curios if it is the bike that was bought at Bonham & Butterfields' auction for $93,600. Supposedly there where only seven ever built and this is the only one ever to be offered for public sale.

Can any of you old timers tell me if you have ever seen this bike? Do you have a picture? Who is the owner? I just want to be sure nobody is pulling the wool over this old country boys eyes this week-end. Thanks in advance. -Steve

[c.o.]

Although I do think that the conversions are relatively rare, I highly doubt it's the only one in the U.S. If I can remember right I do believe that Paul Bigsby (Crockers shop foreman) made an overhead valve conversion on a first year 101 Scout. His first attempt was made of cast iron and then I believe he switched to aluminum for the remainder of the conversions. It seems to me that there were more than twenty conversions built between '28 and '32.

[Barry Brown]

Here we go again with fakesville USA. There's not ONE original Crocker part on any of this latest rash of "Crocker/Indians" It has amazed me how naiive people with serious money can be. Must be something to do with the easy way they aquired it. One born every minute! I have never seen a real Bigsby custom just fake misrepresented crap!

[Ohio-Rider]

Thanks for the info guys. This is one of the great advantages of this club. I can always get the straight dope on things like this, that otherwise I may never be able to find out.

I hope this subject doesn't turn into another mud slinging contest, and if it starts heading that way that our administrator will chop it off quickly. Thanks again. -Steve

[exeric]

One of those Indian/Crocker conversion bikes made the front cover of our club magazine a number of years back. As Barry said, it was a fabricated deal by a fellow in south Florida. I don't know how many kits he made or sold but I do recall hearing that there was not a genuine kit known to exist. I think that magazine went into a fair amount of detail about it.

[Jerry Hatfield]

1929 Indian Crocker

In 1980 I interviewed Gene Rhyne, who claimed he assembled every Crocker V-twin roadster except the very last one. At the time, the generally accepted Crocker V-twin roadster production estimate was around 300 bikes, based on engine or serial numbers. Rhyne insisted that the total number of Crocker V-twin roadsters was between 55 and 60. I think Rhyne's estimate is now accepted, which means Crocker was faking the numbers to make production look more impressive. Continuing my Crocker study, I listened to Fred Markwick, Ernie Skelton, and Chuck Vernon, who I believe, along with Rhyne, constituted THE Crocker expertise in America. None of these men ever mentioned production of an "Indian/Crocker." Al Crocker got started in the V-twin business by making overhead-valve conversion kits for racing Indian Scouts. The Indian factory also built some overhead-valve Scouts, mainly for hill-climbing. I believe that any such Indian-Crocker hybrid roadsters which might have existed in the 1930s, were period customs the same as, for instance, bikes we call "Norvins" and "Tritons."

[Ohio-Rider]

Jerry, Thanks for your insight and your first hand knowledge about this subject.

Well......, I’ve heard from three of the best. If you guys say that there is no such thing as a 1929 Indian Crocker then I believe ya. Now I can’t wait till Sunday. I’ll take some photo’s and share them with everyone.

I’d be interested in your thoughts about this article I found this afternoon with a Google search.
http://www.motorbase.com/auctionlot/by-id/1864596456/

So what did you think?
-Steve

[c.o.]

That's the bike that was in the article that exeric is refering to. I dug through my magazines and the article ran in the summer '99 issue. This bike did come out of Florida and wasn't an orginal conversion from the early days and is but a reproduction of an idea of times gone by. I think that possibly the promoters of the swap were mis-fed information or are just running on an assumption. The real conversions did exist for 101 Scouts, but there was never an Indian Crocker produced.

[Barry Brown]

OK, here's my take on all this. from what I heard about Gene Rhyne from Don Doody who talked extensively with him , Gene had a penchant for the bottle at work, say no more. Ernie Skelton repeatedly told tales of road going Crockers getting speeding tickets for 136 mph, hmmm, ok, doesn't quite match the dry lakes performances does it. Chuck Vernon is a lovely guy but is too young to have had first hand experience with this .
I have communicated extensively with Homer Wood , retired mechanical engineer who bought Crocker serial number 4 from Al Crocker personally. He spent much time at the factory and knew all the main players well. In 1936 He rode #4 across the country from LA to Mass. to do his Masters degree in mech. engineering at Harvard . His thesis employed a Crocker speedway engine! Homer laughs at these production figures of 50 or 60 or even 100 . After all there are nearly 60 original documented bikes known! That would be too good a survival rate for a fast accelerating bike ridden by hot rodder types.
Milby Jones , deceased collector from Exton Pennsylvania had a set of repro , supposedly Crocker Indian conversion unmachined heads he got from a friend of his in Australia. Gwen Banquer obtained these and copied the copies ( getting complicated isn't it) and built a bunch of those things which after the front cover of our magazine exposure sold well. Bigsby rode aroung LA on what was probably the grandfather of all bobbers in May of 1934 when Crocker was only making the speedway machines.

[Early Iron MC]

Barry Has it right, the bike thats going to be at the swap meet is one of Gwen Banquer's copies, I talked with him a few years back at Eustis about his conversions, he had 10 sets cast and built 7 kits I've seen the bike that will be at the swap meet and two others. I've been tring to find an original set for at least 20 years and have never been able to find any. There's a guy in Canada selling repops now and I have also seen paterns on Lyle Lindstroms web site. the storys that I keep hearing are that only 20 to 25 sets where ever made by Crocker and of those sets, only 5 sets where all cast iron, some say they were made from '28 - '30, But who knows for sure, I've been chasing down leads for years, and can't find any hard facts to back anything up.

[c.o.]

WOW Barry.............Thanks for sharing that thought! All of the info you provided is plenty good enough for me. I can recall a few years back a tale Don told me about having #'s 1-4 all in the same place at once! I was present for one of his infamous late night b.s. sessions and the details are a little foggy...... I'm sure that there had to have been pictures taken. I'll have to quiz him about it the next time I see him. Thanks again. That kind of knowledge is priceless.

[Jerry Hatfield]

1929 Indian Crocker

So what's the latest estimate of Crocker production? Can anyone provide a list of all known surviving Crockers?

If 55-60 isn't close, why would Gene Rhyne emphatically (lots of profanity!) stress 55 to 60 as a total?

The reason I mentioned Ernie and Chuck is that they both tried to learn all they could about Crockers -- over 40 years ago. My point being, that had there been serial production of "Indian-Crocker" roadsters, I believe they would have known of this "no-brainer." Ernie and Chuck , both dedicated Indian and Crocker guys, certainly would've mentioned the fabled "Indian-Crocker" to a guy writing a book about American motorcycles.

[rbenash]

Very interesting thread. Very educational. Barry - I actually met Milby Jones. Back when I was working for the phone company (Bell of Pa). Milby was just completing his new home on Rt. 100 and gave me a tour of his "basement" museum in the then new house. A visit I will never forget. He was a very talented guy.

I didn't get to see those heads you mention, but I did get to see a lot. Sorry to hear he passed. Where did his collection go?

Ray

[Early Iron MC]

Barry, Do you know about when Milby Jones got those heads out of Australia? I was dealing with a guy from Australia tring to get a set of unmachined heads back in the early '90s but I was to late and some one from the eastern USA got them he said. I thought it was Gwen Banquer, but it looks like I was wrong.

[Barry Brown]

I probably shouldn't say this out loud but what the hay, who reads this stuff anyway, certainly only a small group of us judging by the same names cropping up all the time. Chuck Vernon and others formulated a roster of existing Crockers about 12 years ago . At that time there were just under 50 known and several have surfaced that I know of since then. Jerry, it's too bad you didn't talk with Homer Wood, you would have enjoyed his learned insights . He may still be around but would be ninetyish by now, he was still sharp as a tack in his mid eighties.
Crocker #1x is owned by Chuck Vernon. After I broke the story about Homer Wood there was a minor frenzy to repatriate the bits of #4 and after the smoke cleared Randy Wiggins was the victor of sorts since Crocker did not number frames we'll never know the truth of that. And now that Markus in Toronto is making frames etc. it will further muddy the waters as to originality but isn't this a familiar story these days? Don Doody has the flywheels numbered from engine #3 but I have not seen the rest of his eternal basket case. The first 20 or so small tanks had too steep a neck rake and many speed wobbles resulted in scrap metal. I owned #14 at one time and it's frame had had some drastic crude backbone surgery .
Crockers were a favourite plaything at the dragstrip according to John Cameron. I have had several hemi heads ( the first 24 had these) that had been detonated by mixing too much nitro. I have also seen gorgeous original crack free used heads that dispute the lack of pattern expertise at Crocker's smallish factory.
I'm pretty sure Chuck and others more knowledgable than I estimate around 106 road going twins were made. This to me seems about right so keep checking those barns.
Milby Jones' stuff was auctioned off a few years ago. He was one of my heros. Just a really great guy and knowledgable collector. He had Indian 4's every year made, plus Hendersons, Ace ( went to Mike Terry who did a beautiful job on it, he takes it to Oley sometimes it's white) . He had an ohv Indian circa 1924 hillclimb engine ( went to Jim Smith) and the only known big base Indian 8 valve that looked NOS to me. JIm Dennie got this and built a bike around it ( or I should say that Brad Wilmar did for Jim) He gave it that old patina as Lonnie does, exactly what I would have done ( without attempting to deceive I am sure) . Milby liked English stuff too which is quite rare amongst collectors of his ilk. He had a rare Y13 BSA, Matchless Silver Hawk etc. Also some rare Guzzis and a rare German Victoria circa 1925. and a Megola 5 cylinder engine only that went to Steve Geiger.
Sorry, I am rambling, I could go on for hours.