Low End 1941 F/FL Serial Numbers?

[HarleyCreation]

On another forum the question was raised whether or not Harley-D produced FL's early in the 1941 model year. Because one old dealer (Howard Belmont, St Paul, Minn.), said that he had a very hard time getting FL's early in 1941.

Now, if Howard Belmont said this, likely it was true in some respect. But maybe it was more of a supply and demand thing. Because I went back and looked at data that I compiled from original 1941 records and find the following authentic 41F & 41FL serial numbers below #2000. This shows that F's and FL's were being assembled early in the model year:

41F1186
41FL1293
41FL1318
41FL1377
41FL1400
41F1442
41F1447
41F1449
41FL1577
41FL1656
41FL1708
41FL1981

36R1000 (Fancy that! Unfortunately I didn't record the name and address of the owner.)

High side
41F6077
42FL1162

Incidently, in 1976-78 or so I visited Howard Belmont's dealership when the widow was liquidating. The old brick or stone basement was an Aladdin's Treasure Cave of old Harley parts with the floor actually inlaid with junk buried level in the dirt so that you walked over them plus spring forks piled up and hanging out of every dark corner. I think that was orig. Guy Webb's old dealership going back to 1910? God knows what was buried in that basement and might still be there yet!

Any other under #2000 41F/FL's out there?

Anybody else remember Belmont's Treasure Cave?

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Also posted on the NEW forum:

http://amca.dreamhosters.com/bboard/...splay.php?f=38

[Rub]

Howard, As I got it from discussing '41 FLs with Charlie Pinckard (who was the H-D dealer in Albuquerque from '34 to '65 and then ran an independent shop into the '80s and the place I hung out as often as possible) he recalled that the new 74 inch machine was not as popular as the 61 when it first came out and that the factory wasn't turning them out as fast as the 61. Not a lot of early orders from dealers. He did get a demonstrator early on and was able to sell a few. As the season progressed the demand grew to where by the end of the year the 74 production was greater than the 61 and he could get all he wanted. He personally liked the 61 better so possibly didn't push 74 sales. He thought they vibrated more and didn't offer a significant power gain. Mostly good for sidecar haulers and the like! His was one of those shops where parts that are now gold lay around in the dirt in huge piles. When he gave up his franchise and moved to his home,after all the outbuildings and corrals filled up they started hauling parts to the city dump! Robbie

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Rub
Howard, As I got it from discussing '41 FLs with Charlie Pinckard (who was the H-D dealer in Albuquerque from '34 to '65 and then ran an independent shop into the '80s and the place I hung out as often as possible) he recalled that the new 74 inch machine was not as popular as the 61 when it first came out and that the factory wasn't turning them out as fast as the 61. Not a lot of early orders from dealers. He did get a demonstrator early on and was able to sell a few. As the season progressed the demand grew to where by the end of the year the 74 production was greater than the 61 and he could get all he wanted. He personally liked the 61 better so possibly didn't push 74 sales. He thought they vibrated more and didn't offer a significant power gain. Mostly good for sidecar haulers and the like! His was one of those shops where parts that are now gold lay around in the dirt in huge piles. When he gave up his franchise and moved to his home,after all the outbuildings and corrals filled up they started hauling parts to the city dump! Robbie

That could well explain the initial shortage of 41FL's. It seems like every time a new model is introduced, there is a lag time before it takes off. An initial hesitation, so to speak, even if it's ultimately a best seller.

I know what you mean about today's "gold" being absolute "junk." My first old Harleys came out of a junk-pile dirt cheap.

[exeric]

This is a bit off subject but Herb and Rub touched on the amount of parts some dealers had. I've always wondered why dealers kept so much "new" stock on their shelves. I know Puckett's H-D in Orlando had a large inventory of N.O.S. and people I've known talk about dealers in their towns that maintained a large stock of spare parts. Why did dealers tie up so much money in static inventory? I know that stuff is gold today but 30 plus years ago it was not that big of a deal. Did the factory force the dealers to stock spare parts? And if so, why would a dealer have a frame or gas tanks for instance. You can understand perishable parts like spark plugs, valves, pistons and such but hard parts like brake backing plates, and seat posts make you wonder why a dealer would want that stuff on his shelves, draining his bank account.

[jwl]

I think maybe the old dealers were more concerned with their customers needs back then. You must remember that back then parts had to be ordered by mail not email or phone. Parts were probably shipped only once a month and then it was by train. Could take a long time from customers order date to delivery date. I know my dad depended on his ride to get him to work. Not like today where most poeple have 2 or 3 cars and only ride their bikes on sunny weekends.

[HarleyCreation]

I think some of the old dealer literature addresses the issue of parts inventory. That is, having a good "gen-u-whine" parts supply on hand for one's customers made them happy (plus also it kept the Factory busy and helped shift some the onus of capital investement onto the dealers, heh, heh.) Probably liberal dealer discounts and a perky P&A Dept. under Harry Devine also helped.

Then too, remember how so many riders back in the 1930s-40s-50s threw their bikes around TT courses and enduros, hillclimbs, midnight mystery tours, various derbys (often involving a Little Brown Jug), and other Class C events which broke or bent a lot of parts that a guy needed fixed PDQ in order to compete the next weekend (which also helped the dealer's balance sheet, heh, heh). I remember Grandpa Deckert saying about damaging his bike in those events. "Sure we could hurt our bikes," he said. "but that was our life." Not like now when the owner goes nuts over a bird speck on his chrome and has a whole closet full of various cleaners and polishes and a dedicated bike dryer (no fooling, I just saw one advertised).

The previous post about slow ordering and delivery from the Factory is also a very good point.

[Rub]

The dealer I wrote of earlier was one of those who kept a large inventory. Often one of the smaller dealers ordered their parts from the larger ones as opposed to ordering from the factory. When items became obsolete the factory would close out the old parts which were then purchased in large lots by the bigger dealers. I remember seeing rows of JD and VL cylinders, trans cases, etc, that were nos. He was also very involved in racing (1937 SW TT champ) and sponsored Endurance runs, TT races, Hillclimbs and club events. His brother Walt was a H-D dealer in Lubbock TX in the '50s and they jointly put on events. Walt would ride his Pan to ABQ on Sat night, strip it, lay out the endurance run on Sat, help run the race on Sun, put the bike back together, ride back to Lubbock (approx 300 mi) and open his store Mon morning. Robbie

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Rub
The dealer I wrote of earlier was one of those who kept a large inventory. Often one of the smaller dealers ordered their parts from the larger ones as opposed to ordering from the factory. When items became obsolete the factory would close out the old parts which were then purchased in large lots by the bigger dealers. I remember seeing rows of JD and VL cylinders, trans cases, etc, that were nos. He was also very involved in racing (1937 SW TT champ) and sponsored Endurance runs, TT races, Hillclimbs and club events. His brother Walt was a H-D dealer in Lubbock TX in the '50s and they jointly put on events. Walt would ride his Pan to ABQ on Sat night, strip it, lay out the endurance run on Sat, help run the race on Sun, put the bike back together, ride back to Lubbock (approx 300 mi) and open his store Mon morning. Robbie

Very interesting. Often the old time dealer was right out there in front during the very events he sponsered to help keep the excitement alive. I believe the rationale behind all those more rough and tumble events were not only to keep the riders involved, but also to sell replacement parts for what got bent or dented. Remember too, that many guys back then did much of their own wrench work and a dealer's only hope with guys like that was to sell them parts and maybe oil.

[exeric]

When you think about the attitude of dealers back then, it makes more sense. A motorcycle dealer had to be a hardcore motorcycle nut. I don't think anyone that loved money more than motorcycles would have made it in the competitive, small profit business of motorcyling. I am guilty of comparing old time dealers with the jokers you encounter today. It's a whole different ball game now and today's dealer would not keep any merchandise on his shelves that doesn't have high turnover and built-in profit. I bought a '33 VL from Puckett's back in the early 1980's and Buddy Puckett threw in a fair amount of NOS motor parts from old inventory. That stuff sat on the shelf for a long time before Puckett's made any money on it.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by exeric
When you think about the attitude of dealers back then, it makes more sense. A motorcycle dealer had to be a hardcore motorcycle nut. I don't think anyone that loved money more than motorcycles would have made it in the competitive, small profit business of motorcyling. I am guilty of comparing old time dealers with the jokers you encounter today. It's a whole different ball game now and today's dealer would not keep any merchandise on his shelves that doesn't have high turnover and built-in profit. I bought a '33 VL from Puckett's back in the early 1980's and Buddy Puckett threw in a fair amount of NOS motor parts from old inventory. That stuff sat on the shelf for a long time before Puckett's made any money on it.

Somewhere in my memory is a thing I heard from an old dealer years ago along these lines. That a lot of NOS VL parts were sitting on dealers' shelves gathering dust into modern times because the VL model soon went out of existence and the parts became obsolete relatively quickly plus the VL gave birth to no children like the EL did sharing common parts right down into Shovelhead times.

As a result VL inventory just sat, but because old time dealers were also hardcore motorcycle freaks like you said, the old dealers kept 'em around like pets; probably figuring that someday somebody would come around and need a VL part which turned out to be true. Plus the NOS boxes were pretty to look at.

[Rub]

Another odd bit of information from my late dealer friend. Harley-Davidson would offer parts to dealers that were seconds. Most of the issues were cosmetic only. I remember looking through piles of Knucklehead head castings that were NOS but had things like a broken fin or an uneven casting with deformed fins. They were always finished as far having been dipped and finish machined. Just not good enough for a new bike. Lots of odd bits like that. My '47 knuckle frame is one that he had that had been returned to the factory to be straightened. When I got it the factory enamel was on it, still is. Lots of runs and globs of paint. It had an attached brass plate with a number stamped in it that matches a number stamped into the frame at the right side wire terminal web. He would send them back in batches to repair and exchange them. So how original is that old bike you bought from the original owner??

[exeric]

It's interesting that you should mention "seconds" Rub. I've come across NOS Excelsior and Henderson stuff that is below standard or down right bad. I'm sure there were "bean-counters" at all of the factrories that were calculating the profits that could be made from scrap. Herb, I recall the introduction to your book on VL's and early OHV's and the scrap pile on H-D's property. You wonder how much of that got into circulation and now resides on someones priceless 99 point AMCA judged Knucklehead.

[HarleyCreation]

Yes, years ago there was a scrap pile behind the Juneau Ave. factory that was regularly looted. Also, who worked there tell lots of funny stories of parts being stolen from production. In the 1960s there was a HUGE stolen parts ring out of the Factory involving semi-loads of parts.

There was also a special room or store at the Factory for dealers full of odds and ends that could be purchased at a deep discount. Obsolete parts, returns, repaired stuff, salvaged bikes, and useable seconds. Dealers like that option because they never knew what goodies they would find there. Some experimental stuff accidently got out of the Factory that way too.

Exp. stuff got out of the Factory in other ways as well -- usually in some employee's sidecar!