Clymer, Munch, & 1968 Indian Scout!

[HarleyCreation]

On Ed Youngblood's website there is a real interesting story and update about Floyd Clymer's later project to re-launch the Indian name in 1968 after he obtained the Munch firm in Germany. Very good stuff and since we've been talking about Floyd on the "First H-D OHV" this fits right in.

Basically what Floyd had devised for his resurrected '68 Scout was a K-model!

In the lingo of the early years, he had devised something of a "freak."

I wonder what his logic really was?

No matter how people might fault Clymer, one thing is certain from his Motor Scrapbooks: Floyd was there!

PS: Brodie & Pete Gagan's replica OHC Ex is also at that link.

Can it beat the Cyclone?

http://www.motohistory.net/news.html

[T. Cotten]

HW!

It should be no surprise that "Basically what Floyd had devised for his resurrected '68 Scout was a K-model!"

It is obvious that the K model was an attempt to 'resurrect' (copy) the Scout!

(Tranny shafts vertical to each other, tranny adjoined to motor, adjustor shoe for primary drive, etc., etc.)

....Cotten

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by T. Cotten
HW!

It should be no surprise that "Basically what Floyd had devised for his resurrected '68 Scout was a K-model!"

It is obvious that the K model was an attempt to 'resurrect' (copy) the Scout!

(Tranny shafts vertical to each other, tranny adjoined to motor, adjustor shoe for primary drive, etc., etc.)

....Cotten

Good one Cotten.

But I still wonder: Did Floyd really believe that a sidevalve motor could compete in the marketplace in 1968? Don't get me wrong. I like flatheads a lot. They are simple and easy and look good too. But their day had passed. Back when Harley unveiled the flathead K model dealers were underwhelmed. By 1968 the OHC Honda Four was on the horizon!

What was Floyd thinking? That there were still enough die-hard Indian fans around who would demand a side-valve? Or that nobody would notice?

[T. Cotten]

What was he thinking?

I finally found time for the link, and the International Harvester emblems say it all!

There were still plenty of 741 motors laying around unwanted in '68: something he could fall back upon if the project accidentally succeeded.

The history of the Indian marque after Springfield has been endless repeats of the plot from "The Producers".
(We didn't need a remake of that one either.)

....Cotten

[Barry Brown]

I don't know about the future of the flathead being perceived dead in 1968. wasn't that the years Roger Reiman lapped Daytona at 149 mph with his KR? I am not an engineer but I can recall reading that with a supercharger, the flathead engine was the equal of the ohv with a supercharger ( in those times ignoring the ohv developments since then) . It was the racing KR that Floyd was trying to emulate not the gutless K model which Harley themselves shelved in 57. Maybe he was thinking of supercharging too. After all,Floyd himself raced ohv 8 valve Harleys against ohc Cyclones so he knew all about valves being "upstairs"

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Barry Brown
I don't know about the future of the flathead being perceived dead in 1968. wasn't that the years Roger Reiman lapped Daytona at 149 mph with his KR? I am not an engineer but I can recall reading that with a supercharger, the flathead engine was the equal of the ohv with a supercharger ( in those times ignoring the ohv developments since then) . It was the racing KR that Floyd was trying to emulate not the gutless K model which Harley themselves shelved in 57. Maybe he was thinking of supercharging too. After all,Floyd himself raced ohv 8 valve Harleys against ohc Cyclones so he knew all about valves being "upstairs"

Did Floyd ride an 8-valve Harley in any race against the OHC Cyclone? He may have, but offhand I can't recall that happening. I don't believe there was a Cyclone on the Dodge City track in 1916 when Floyd rode the Harley 8-valve that day. Too bad, because that would have made that already great race even better for the history books.

But that brings up a really good point. If not that day at Dodge City in 1916, did a Harley 8-valve ever race against a Cyclone anywhere else? That would be worth knowing.

Maybe Floyd was trying to recreate the Harley KR, but if he was then he should have advertised that each bike came with Dick O'brien and a team of mechanics in the toolbox.

It's possible Floyd was thinking of supercharging. Makes sense. What other hope would there be against a Honda 4?

The sidevalve had had a good run but by 1968 it's day was over and like you said, Floyd should have been the one to know that. He had seen the excitement of those early OHVs way back in the teens and not just pure racers either, but road Popes and the big modern magnificant OHV Jefferson pushrod V-twin designed by the legendary Perry E. Mack. Then, of course, the roar of approval when the 61 OHV was released in 1936. Also the quick acceptence of British OHV singles and twins gained in this country after WWII. Floyd had seen all that.

But like someone said, maybe Floyd had a stash of Indian flatheads left over from the glory days and thought this was a good way to unload them.

[Barry Brown]

I'll see if I can find any references to an 8 valve Cyclone showdown.
I must disagree strongly however on your perception of KR maintenance. I rode a KR on the street for 3 years and only aq very amatuer mechanic did all the wrenching myself including a total rebuild and it was the soul of reliability, a one kick starter ( with the original bomb site carb) , all round one of the best bikes I've ever had and would like to have it back.

[HarleyCreation]

Cyclone vs. Harley 8-valve

Originally posted by Barry Brown
I'll see if I can find any references to an 8 valve Cyclone showdown.
I must disagree strongly however on your perception of KR maintenance. I rode a KR on the street for 3 years and only aq very amatuer mechanic did all the wrenching myself including a total rebuild and it was the soul of reliability, a one kick starter ( with the original bomb site carb) , all round one of the best bikes I've ever had and would like to have it back.

That's interesting. If you rode a KR and it was a good bike for you that says plenty. I had WLs and they were fine if you didn't push them. Guys with K models and Big Twin flatheads that I knew couldn't seem to keep pistons in them.

Probably the controversy over the flathead engine will never end....

Re: Cyclone vs. H-D 8-valve

Thanks.

You'd think there would have been enough overlap in time in 1916/early 1917 so that the Cyclone and the Harley 8-valve could have come head to head. But sometime in 1917, I believe, they called off most racing for the duration of the World War and when racing resumed (in 1919?) the Cyclone would have been an old bike.

That brief circa1913/14-early 1917 racing period was unique in brands and experimental engine types. That period of go-fast racing is interesting. Too bad the (pushrod) Jefferson OHV didn't make the bigger events. The Jefferson (formerly P.E.M. & Waverley) sure cleaned up on the county fair horse tracks around the Milwaukee area.

Perry E. Mack's OHV motor was certainly fast and seems to have been fairly reliable too. One wonders how it would have stood up on the "long grind."

[Barry Brown]

I was fortunate with my KR in that I acquired a set of nos cylinders and followed the factory instructions of running for 100 miles, dismantalling and then reboring + .010. and using forged pistons with a recomended .008 skirt clearance! My guess is to straighten the bores after the usual warpage caused by excessive heat on one side. This common flathead problem was I believe was possibly the motivation for Al Crocker to cast in quarter inch thick liners in his engines , which if you include the speedway single predates the ohv Knuckle by a few years. Then again , the JAP which trounced them all including Harleys ineffective speedway which was a loose copy. And speaking of JAPs, the ohv 90 bore predates the Waverley.
That KR of mine would really fly.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Barry Brown
I was fortunate with my KR in that I acquired a set of nos cylinders and followed the factory instructions of running for 100 miles, dismantalling and then reboring + .010. and using forged pistons with a recomended .008 skirt clearance! My guess is to straighten the bores after the usual warpage caused by excessive heat on one side. This common flathead problem was I believe was possibly the motivation for Al Crocker to cast in quarter inch thick liners in his engines , which if you include the speedway single predates the ohv Knuckle by a few years. Then again , the JAP which trounced them all including Harleys ineffective speedway which was a loose copy. And speaking of JAPs, the ohv 90 bore predates the Waverley.
That KR of mine would really fly.

Those kind of tolerances explain a lot.

It would be fun to test a KR set up for road use with a windshield and saddlebags and highway gearing just to see how reliable it would actually be running with OHVs of the day over a sustained period.

I've read about that English OHV motorcycle circa 1906 or so and it may have been a JAP. Maybe Mack got his inspiration from that, but he may have gotten it from early American OHV automobile engines of which there were a few. As far as I know, Perry never explained the origin or inspiration for his motor. He seemed to always remain in the background and to this day remains something of a mystery man.

Even the name "Waverley" they used is a mystery. Lacy Crolius from H-D and Ralph Sporleder show up as early Waverley Co. people but nobody by the name of Waverley! What gives with that?

D.W.: are you reading this?

PS: Interesting update at Youngblood's website telling how Floyd displayed his Munch in the men's toilet. Funny as heck!