using judged points to help sell a bike?

[T. Cotten]

I am having a hard time imagining, Chris,...

Any judge that would know more about what is correct for your machines than you do!

Did you switch to imports?

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

What other justification for judging is there, Harry?

....Cotten

I have my bikes judged to have the opportunity to have experts give me constructive criticism to make it correct. I seldom sell a bike and I have never sold a bike I have had judged.

[Architect]

My opinion, if the bike was judged (recently not 25 years ago) the favorable judging results are part of my sale listing. Why? It is a selling point. My 19?? bike was judged by the AMCA and received **** Award etc, etc. I do not believe it makes the AMCA responsible if I am a crook and changed half of the bike and removed all of the nice OEM parts after judging. In an honest world, presenting the bike as judged, the judging results should be a positive selling point. It also could be a reassurance to the buyer.

Now if I am the buyer, 100% you still need to do your research and know what you are buying. The judges are human and mistakes can happen. But why wouldn't I say "Winner's Circle" if the bike had achieved that level. You see listing all the time of bikes and cars that are multiple "trophy" winners. And they are talking about winning at the local Firehouse show.

[KNUCK]

A lot can happen over 28 years so yea, referencing the points has little relevancy. I think the frame VIN was re-stamped

I totally agree Skirted, those frame numbers are nice and straight and where they are stamped is nice and smooth, should be a rough cast finish there as seen on either sides of the numbers!. I have seen a lot of numbers on HD and Indian and often take photos for comparison use. These are very questionable. I have no problem with listing AMCA judging points at the time of sale the onus is always on the buyer!

[tomfiii]

The way things are now , buyer beware.

[T. Cotten]

5) is the protective liability disclaimer we expect, Richard...

But 1) tilts at windmills.

strange game.jpg

....Cotten

[Spag]

Tom,

There is a difference between the clarity of the rule and the enforcement. You are absolutely correct that there is no enforcement provision in the rule. When the Judging Disclaimer was being considered by the Board in 2009, a method of incremental punishment was suggested. Several warnings, temporary membership suspensions and eventual memberships expulsions for violations. None of those enforcement measures were adopted. The Board decided to rely on “moral suasion” with the judging membership. In short, hoping the member would abide by the rule because of their integrity and appreciation of the judging system. As we can see, moral suasion doesn’t always work.

The original purpose of this rule was to protect the AMCA and the members who volunteer to judge motorcycles from lawsuits filed by disgruntled buyers who state they relied on the representation that the motorcycle purchased was a 99 point Winners Circle bike! And it had bad numbers and a bad frame, etc. Yes, there are guys out there that would do that. The indemnification and hold harmless clauses were designed to send a message to those who violated the rule and the AMCA was sued.

[T. Cotten]

It isn't clear, Folks,...

How is 1) enforced?

Askin' for a friend,

....Cotten

[Spag]

Steve, you forgot to include the most relevant section of the Judging Disclaimer which forbids any member or member who becomes a non-member from using the AMCA judging system when selling a motorcycle judged through the AMCA. The disclaimer clearly forbids the use of AMCA judging categories achieved by the member/owner’s motorcycle and the numbers of points assigned to it by the judging team. The intention and spirit of the disclaimer are clear and not subject to individual interpretation. The applicable sections of the disclaimer:

1) The AMCA has an established system for judging its members antique motorcycles, that is those motorcycles which are 35 years and older. … The established system is not to be used by AMCA members and non-members to affect, determine, or influence the value of any antique motorcycle for any other reason except as stated above.

5) If an AMCA member or an AMCA member who I becomes a non-member utilizes the AMCA judging system, as outlined above, in any form or manner when selling an AMCA judged motorcycle, the AMCA shall not be liable to any party, including AMCA members and AMCA members who become non-members at the time the motorcycle was judged shall hold the AMCA harmless and indemnify the AMCA from any liability whatsoever, including reasonable attorney’s fees at both trial and appellate levels, for the use of the established judging system in violation of this judging disclaimer.

[T. Cotten]

With great respect to all appropriate corrollary Scriptures, Steve,...

I was referring to the worldly trailer, fuel, lodging, and other expenses to pilgrimage around to distant Meets multiple times.

Going virtual could part the waters, and the greater glory of anointing Marque awards could be saved for the finish-line Meet.

In person for those who would demand witness...

...Cotten

[Steve Swan]

Please Harry,

Let's hear them!

Who wouldn't demand more for a judged machine, just to cover the overhead of getting judged?

....Cotten

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (Matthew, chapter 7, verses 1 and 2) Yes, i think i'm pretty funny.

Judging gets even better...

[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
[6] Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[T. Cotten]

I can think of several other reasons to have your restoration work judged, besides supporting a higher sales price. But never mind my question, my memory doesn't serve me right!

Please Harry,

Let's hear them!

Who wouldn't demand more for a judged machine, just to cover the overhead of getting judged?

....Cotten

[Skirted]

A lot can happen over 28 years so yea, referencing the points has little relevancy. I think the frame VIN was re-stamped

[Steve Slocombe]

I also recall the earlier Judging Disclaimer asking us not to use judging points in sale, but it has been revised and can been seen on the Website under Events and then Judging Information. Closest is para 4 which reads

4. Any AMCA member who desires to sell an antique motorcycle which has been judged by AMCA judges at any sanctioned AMCA event acknowledges and agrees that the value of any antique motorcycle is determined solely by the willing seller and the willing buyer regardless of the number of points and/or judging classification given to an antique motorcycle under the AMCA established system for judging its members’ antique motorcycles.

[pisten-bully]

What other justification for judging is there, Harry?

....Cotten

I can think of several other reasons to have your restoration work judged, besides supporting a higher sales price. But never mind my question, my memory doesn't serve me right!