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How does this vin look? I'm looking to purchase this bike it has matching belly numbers and registration is harley with same number. I dont know everything on numbers but I know somewhat
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Last edited by Panhead_Bobber_11C; 05-17-2021, 11:44 PM. -
They look wrong, and not stamped by H-D.Robbie Knight Amca #2736 -
Well, you asked and got a honest opinion from very knowledgeable member, I would also say it is a restamp, but I think you had already made up your mind before you asked.Originally posted by Panhead_Bobber_11CComment
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With genuine documentation from the dealer that re-stamped it, I would say your motor is totally legitimate and could be judged by the AMCA. Just my opinion, but I believe the AMCA would have to recognize a legitimate re-stamp, motor replacement by a H-D dealer as an integral part of the bikes history.. However, genuine, verifiable documentation is the only thing that would make that legitimate; but just someone saying it doesn't mean diddly. I agree that the numbers are not factory stamped, and look hand stamped.
As a question to those who would know; if a dealer needed to replace a broken motor case for a customer bike; was the dealer required to send the broken case to H-D, and did H-D stamp the titled case # into the new case? I would have thought that even back in the old days, the Feds had laws about re-stamping vehicle I.D. numbers.Eric Smith
AMCA #886Comment
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Not my field, but the numbers look very... "crisp" for something exposed to sunlight, ozone and moisture for 65 years.Comment
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Yeah, that's the problem. The AMCA goes by obvious material correctness, or verifiable paper documentation. The AMCA has to take the same position as any historian, or lawyer
You can see their point, and they are not questioning anyone's veracity, or memory but history has to be cut in stone in regards to a benchmark for judging (my apologies to CottenSo, as a potential buyer, do you want an AMCA judgable bike, or a rider. Looking at the picture you posted, the motor has a chrome inner primary, acorn nuts, and other chrome do-dads that are not genuine so there's other things to address. In my opinion, if the bike has a good title, runs well, you like it, and you can get it for a good price; the heck with the AMCA and enjoy the dang thing!
Eric Smith
AMCA #886Comment
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And none of that negates the fact that they are not factory stamped numbers. They may be legal, but they are not "original", and nothing can make them so.Originally posted by Panhead_Bobber_11C
It depends on the time frame. Early '60s, no, cases were still available to dealers as replacement parts items. Many dealers just sold that stuff to whoever wanted it, they had no legal requirements preventing that.. By the very late '60s things were changing. I know that by the early '70s dealers could send cases back to H-D (even Knucklehead cases) and receive the earliest type replacements still in stock with the numbers stamped by the factory. I know of a '68 belly number '47 Knuckle like that which is completely legal, but nowhere near original. It was used in a chopper anyway so no one cared. Somewhere I have some replacement case order forms. I'll have to try and find them. Lots of major new DOT regulations were passed in '68 and '69 , that may have been the turning point.As a question to those who would know; if a dealer needed to replace a broken motor case for a customer bike; was the dealer required to send the broken case to H-D, and did H-D stamp the titled case # into the new case? I would have thought that even back in the old days, the Feds had laws about re-stamping vehicle I.D. numbers.
As an aside, at one time in the early '70s I had a Panhead with two sets of numbers, and a Knucklehead with none. The Panhead had OEM numbers and stamped above them had a New Mexico assigned number for a custom built bike. The Knuckle was pretty stock and built with NOS cases and was never stamped. Back then no one cared too much. I had a clear title for the Knuckle and one day rummaging around in the yard of the old retired dealer who had built it I came across a case matching my title. When I carried it in and showed the old dealer he just laughed. When he built the bike he just grabbed a title out a box full of them and gave it to the guy I ended up getting the bike from. I got that case from him and ended up swapping it out to be legal. Lots of whacky stuff back then.Robbie Knight Amca #2736Comment
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And you are not understanding that "Dealer" stamped is not "Harley-Davidson Stamped", those are two very different things. H-D is a manufacturer, dealers are just franchisees, and what they did means little as far as originality, in fact many didn't care. As I have said all along, what you have is legal, but will never be original. Now I'm done here, none of this matters to me and doesn't affect my life in any way.Robbie Knight Amca #2736Comment
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The documentation may prove everything is legal and that nothing untoward happened but I do not believe the stamps used by the dealer were the normal H-D factory types for a 55 Pan. Here’s a partial photo of an authentic-looking (factory-stamped) 55 for comparison of the 5s and 7.
As for the photo of the alleged 56 you received from another person, I’ve seen it before and I have another photo showing the last character which appears to be 6. The 5, first 6, 1 and 2 are not consistent with factory stamping for a 56 Pan. I’m not sure about the 3. Normally it would have a vertical serif at top left but it’s hard to tell if that 3 has a serif or not. Here are partial photos of two authentic-looking (factory-stamped) 56s for comparison of the 5, 6, 1 and 2.
Apparently that other person also sent you other photos? Can you post them please.
Eric
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Dealers stamping numbers into replacement cases was fairly common at one time, and perfectly legal.
VPH-DComment
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Ten thousand????????Comment
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That's almost 30 years worth of a different Harley everyday...........................Comment
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He must be MUCH older than he looks............. OK , I'll stop now......Comment
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Not my field but there is an axiom which may apply here: As with many things in life it comes down to TRUST:
"If you don't know diamonds know your jeweler
If you don't know cancer know your Oncologist"
Just my 2 cents.Comment
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Panhead_Bobber_11C, some of your posts are now missing but here’s part of one of them.
Quote: ‘As for the 55 I posted. He said they are 100% factory font stamps done by the dealer. It is a restamp no doubt because the belly numbers are 60 4770. But it was done the correct way by the dealer. With factory replacement cases. And the stamps that were used on the 55 I posted might have been the early 60s stamps witch changed in 1960 …’
A dealer stamping the 55 SN on 1960 replacement cases is fine. But that other person told you it was done with factory stamps? I’d like to see the evidence please.
You were told the 5 and 7 changed in 1960? I’ve never seen evidence of them changing for 60. Here’s the 5 I’d expect in 1960 Pan SNs. Notice it looks like the 55–56 examples I posted above.
It was also in the sequence portion for 61–64 and it was still in that portion for 65 as shown below. Sometimes it was in the year portion for 65 but often the year 5 was slightly different as this example illustrates. Neither of these 5s are in the 55 you’re thinking about buying.
Here’s the 7 I’d expect in 1960 Pan SNs. Notice the serif and the type of back. Looks like the 7 I posted above.
A seriffed 7 remained in use for 61–64 and it was still going for 65.
Re the alleged 56, I do not believe it was stamped at the factory. Apart from the 5, 1 and 2, what about the round-back 6? Yes I know some (not all) Pans had a round-back 6 in the year portion for 60–62 but I’ve never seen evidence of it for 56. Yet that alleged 56 SN has been checked and verified from original documentation? I’d like to see the evidence please. And I’d still like to see the other photos he sent you.
EricComment
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