Must participate in 50+ mile ride to be judged or lose points?

[RSmith]

After years of waiting, we finally began bringing our vintage motorcycle to some events this year, to see how it "stacks up" to others that are similar.

We were surprised, last weekend, when we drove 12 hours, with trailer in tow, round trip to a Saturday - Sunday event, only to be told during the SUNDAY morning set-up, for the Concourse judging, that because we did NOT participate in a 50+ mile road run, on Saturday, that we had already "LOST" 10 valuable points in the Concourse judging, for lack of "participation?"

PLEASE NOTE - This was NOT an AMCA event, but one held by another established group.

This was the FIRST time we had EVER heard of this requirement and there was NO mention of ANY such thing on the pre-event paperwork we received at home, or during the other activities at the host clubs site, or banquet, on Friday and Saturday.

Our question is this .... is this a normal "expected" type of test for historic bikes, in advertised "Concourse" type judging, that we should expect? Once again, there was NO mention of the 10 point "loss" on the form, that we sent in, with our pre-registration payment.

We were only told of the deduction when an event "Official" walked up to us and showed us the judging form on Sunday morning as we finished our bikes set up, at 9 AM, on the judging field. There it was, on the judges private scoring form, he held in his hand, "10 points off," if the bike had NOT been ridden the 1 1/2 hour highway event. Obviously, that put you immediately in the judging "hole." But perhaps this is what is done at all or most events?

We made no "scene" at this show and we do understand if some groups might require the bike to start. It just seems a little strong to demand such a legal and mechanical commitment of guests, to your event, when you consider WHAT you are forcing your guests to possibly address as they ride on a strange, busy highway, searching for those 10 extra points??

Including, having proper insurance for the road activity, expecting guests who are also "vintage," themselves, (in some cases!), to hit the road and exposing both rider and bike to the dangers that exist on todays open highway, while perhaps riding a 1940, single cylinder, immaculate motorcycle, with a top speed of 35 mph?

We just needed to ask the "Veteran" AMCA members if this, "required road ride participation - or 10 points off the top during judging," rule is the norm?

Thank you for all your help.

[AdminGuy]

No it's not. You got smoked on the inside track. Live and learn I guess.

[Smarty]

Here in the UK, on most VMCC runs, if you don't ride to the lunch stop you don't get judged...period.

This stops the trailer queens walking off with the silverware with bikes with no working internal parts and not capable of running.

[KNUCK]

When they keep having the same 5 or 10 bikes show up every year maybe they will loosen the rules up a bit. It's one thing to go on a road run, and another to show an old bike with a limited top speed that is belt driven or just low on speed. I have to be on my toes even when on my new bike with all the idiot drivers today.

[T. Cotten]

I don't believe that AMCA judging was ever intended to be competitive.

It is supposed to be a beneficial service, and only the jealously competitive would see it any other way.

The AMCA sets standards decades ago for the vintage community, however sovereign clubs shall always follow their own agenda. The prestige of awards shall grow or diminish accordingly.

...Cotten

[LouieMCman]

According to the early AMC newsletters, the bikes went for a mandatory 5 mile ride before the judging started. I think it was dropped sometime in the 1970's. I personally think the bikes should be ran some anyway, along with a check of the lights and what ever else is on the bike. I know some bikes go through the judging with clean pipes, with only an occasional idling of the motor.

Louie

[RSmith]

Thanks!

We want to thank everybody who helped us with the question about a vintage bike event deducting 10 out of 100 points if participants did not complete a 50+ ride on paved and gravel road surfaces.

Nineteen of our AMCA members emailed us with their own concerns including -

1) This event should have notified participants AHEAD of our arrival, that they expected us to ride 50 miles, or lose 10 judging points.
2) Of the 19 emails, 17 of the AMCA members wrote that while they had no problem STARTING their bikes for event judges .... they WOULD NOT drive their antique, sometimes 80+ year old belt driven bikes, on any such 50 mile ride.
3) And finally, some of the emails brought up the concern for the liability a local club opens itself up to, in todays society, if/when something unforseen happens to a rider, on their "required" road ride, who was fulfilling the club "requirement" of an open road ride, with a motorcycle that might have a top speed of 30 mph, on unfamiliar road surfaces.

Thanks again everybody. We will simply steer clear of this type of event in the future and hopefully, they will undertand that they MUST notify all participants, well BEFORE they drive 12 - 16 hours roundtrip, of their 50 mile required ride.

[Earl]

I think a bike should be able to be started and run, in order to be judged for an award. If it doesn't run, it's nothing more than a giant model.

[RSmith]

Thanks Earl

"Earl,"

The vast majority of AMCA members who responded agreed
with you -

"2) Of the 19 emails, 17 of the AMCA members wrote that while they had no problem STARTING their bikes for event judges .... but they WOULD NOT drive their antique, sometimes 80+ year old belt driven bikes, on any such 50 mile ride."

[indianut]

Why bother with a Motorcycle that you won't/can't ride? Whats the point? The REAL satisfaction in owning Antique Motorcycles is in USING them!!!!

[RSmith]

Indianut

Dear "Indianut"

Two of the 19 email/responses agreed with your point that
all bikes should be ridden. Certainly the minority opinion,
especially when many, of the required 50 miles, were on gravel roads.

Sorry, but I agree with the majority here. I would never
ride a 100 point restored, 40 - 60 year old motorcycle,
30 - 50 mph - 15 miles on gravel roads.

The damage done by thrown road gravel and stones, to the frame,
engine cases, exhaust pipes and paint, of a vintage
bike is not worth the 10 extra points.

[INLINE4NUT]

Just my 2 cents worth but why would anyone want a MC to just look at?? I have mine for what they where intended to ride ! Now as for ridding them on 15+ miles of gravel....Id have to think that one over ! I had for many years a 1924 original paint Henderson it got rode and the person who now owns it still does ride it,Remember the club unofficial slogan RIDE EM DONT HIDE EM!!!!
But of course whom are we to tell the owner of anything what to do with their toy,its just that theirs!
One other thing if you dont like the rules dont sign up!!!

[RSmith]

Good point INLINE4NUT

INLINE4NUT wrote -

"One other thing if you dont like the rules dont sign up!!!"

Good point INLINE4NUT.

Unfortunately, as you may have read in earlier posts above, the group did NOT mention ANYTHING about a "mandatory" ride on any Pre-registration forms that we had to fill out and send in or any pre-show informational fliers. Nothing.

We first heard about it, when a club "Official" came up to every participant, Sunday AM after the bikes were being set up for judging.

At that time, he pointed out a small box, on their judging form that had a 10 point, out of a 100, DEDUCTION listed, for NOT taking the ride on Saturday. The group "thought" everybody knew the rule. Participants were NOT notified prior to the 6 1/2 hour drive to the event.

So we had NO chance to take you up on your suggestion of, " .... if you dont like the rules .... dont sign up!!!"

That is why we began this thread and asked other veteran AMCA members the questions about this type of "requirement," last week.

[AFJ]

Re: Must participate in 50+ mile ride to be judged or lose points?

Originally posted by RSmith
After years of waiting, we finally began bringing our vintage motorcycle to some events this year, to see how it "stacks up" to others that are similar.

We were surprised, last weekend, when we drove 12 hours, with trailer in tow, round trip to a Saturday - Sunday event, only to be told during the SUNDAY morning set-up, for the Concourse judging, that because we did NOT participate in a 50+ mile road run, on Saturday, that we had already "LOST" 10 valuable points in the Concourse judging, for lack of "participation?"

PLEASE NOTE - This was NOT an AMCA event, but one held by another established group.

This was the FIRST time we had EVER heard of this requirement and there was NO mention of ANY such thing on the pre-event paperwork we received at home, or during the other activities at the host clubs site, or banquet, on Friday and Saturday.

Our question is this .... is this a normal "expected" type of test for historic bikes, in advertised "Concourse" type judging, that we should expect? Once again, there was NO mention of the 10 point "loss" on the form, that we sent in, with our pre-registration payment.

We were only told of the deduction when an event "Official" walked up to us and showed us the judging form on Sunday morning as we finished our bikes set up, at 9 AM, on the judging field. There it was, on the judges private scoring form, he held in his hand, "10 points off," if the bike had NOT been ridden the 1 1/2 hour highway event. Obviously, that put you immediately in the judging "hole." But perhaps this is what is done at all or most events?

We made no "scene" at this show and we do understand if some groups might require the bike to start. It just seems a little strong to demand such a legal and mechanical commitment of guests, to your event, when you consider WHAT you are forcing your guests to possibly address as they ride on a strange, busy highway, searching for those 10 extra points??

Including, having proper insurance for the road activity, expecting guests who are also "vintage," themselves, (in some cases!), to hit the road and exposing both rider and bike to the dangers that exist on todays open highway, while perhaps riding a 1940, single cylinder, immaculate motorcycle, with a top speed of 35 mph?

We just needed to ask the "Veteran" AMCA members if this, "required road ride participation - or 10 points off the top during judging," rule is the norm?

Thank you for all your help.

The writer of the above is obviously referring to the recent Canadian Vintage Motorcycle Group Rally held at Paris, Ontario from June 16-18.

Unfortunately the writer has some errors in his claims and comments. I'll try to clarify a few things about the somewhat different system in Canada.

First, the judging in the concours is out of 100 points, but a 10 point bonus is awarded for "participation" in the various events of the Rally. This bonus is added to the concours score for participation in one or more of the following events 1) a road run of a distance suitable to the age and size of the motorcycle, 2) a vintage obseved trial, 3) a vintage field meet, 4) a vintage cavalcade - demonstration of the motorcycle on the track in front of the grandstand or 5) riding the motorcycle to the Rally.

While all motorcycles judged in the concours must be started and ridden into the judging area, there is no requirement that they complete any of the five "bonus point" actions if they do not wish to. For some years I was a judge at this concours and have seen situations where the "10 point participation bonus" both did or did not determine the winner of a particular class or an award. The entrant can choose - participation is optional and there is no demand that one participates by using their motorcycle at the rally. It's a matter of choice.

The Road Run, called the Trillium Run always has optional course lengths for various ages and sizes of motorcycles and those for the really elderly motorcycles are generaly around 12 miles of quite gentle, nearly level and rural countryside. For the later and larger motorcycles the run is usually a scenic 40 to 70 miles. As I recall, the oldest motorcycle to complete one of the short runs was a 1900 DeDion tricycle and I remember being part of a group one year which included a 1903 Kerry motorcycle with single speed and belt drive. On a number of occasions I have completed the middle length run of 40 - 50 miles on my 1927 250 cc 2 stroke Levis lightweight without problem. It has a top speed of about 40 mph - downhill and with a tail wind. This is the same bike I completed a 120 mile day in an AMCA National Road Run in New York's Finger Lakes area in 1999.

Each rider and passenger completing the Trillium Run receives a commemorative enamel pin made specially for that year's run. And usually there is an award for the "oldest age" (rider age plus motorcycle age) and some years an award for the youngest licensed rider completing the run.

The basis of the CVMG concours system is to encourage all participants not only to conserve but also to use their old motorcycles in the manner in which their manufacturers long ago intended. Certainly restoration is an important part of to-day's vintage and antique motorcycle hobby. But the CVMG originated at a time when a large proportion of its members were active riders of motorcycles. A good many of us, although now "senior citizens", still enjoy riding the old bikes.

AFJ

[AFJ]

Re: Indianut

Originally posted by RSmith
Dear "Indianut"

Two of the 19 email/responses agreed with your point that
all bikes should be ridden. Certainly the minority opinion,
especially when many, of the required 50 miles, were on gravel roads.

Sorry, but I agree with the majority here. I would never
ride a 100 point restored, 40 - 60 year old motorcycle,
30 - 50 mph - 15 miles on gravel roads.

The damage done by thrown road gravel and stones, to the frame,
engine cases, exhaust pipes and paint, of a vintage
bike is not worth the 10 extra points.

I have been told by a reliable source that the Road Runs at the CVMG Paris Rally were on paved roads.

AFJ