Ethanol Gas

[Mike C.]

Hi AMCA Members!
This is my first posting. I am wondering if others are concerned about the ethanol additive that is now being added to the gasoline across the nation? We are told that it is replacing MTBE which was ending up in water supply ground wells. I've been using a lead additive in my 38 Chief that I bought at a marine supply store to try and protect the valves from over heating. Does anyone know if this ethanol will make are bikes run hotter, or other precautions we should take? I hope I am posting in the correct category but if not go ahead and move it to where it would be appropriate.

[T. Cotten]

Mike!

There is more than one issue of concern here.

Ethanol in itself is not destructive or digestive. But the additives associated with it are NASTY.
They swell viton and neoprene dramatically, as well as eating the majority of sealers and adhesives previously considered gasproof.

Ethanol itself is so cool running a fuel that you would have to knock fins off to use it efficiently. 95% ethanol and 5% water is equivalent to 95 octane,... but adding it to petrol queers the whole deal.

(Politiks: Mixing it is a stupid idea. Put the straight corn liquor into mass transit where it would be efficient, and save the fossil hi-test for motors that were designed for it!)

Aside, lead additives have very little to do with preventing a Chief's valves from overheating. That's snake-oil theory.
Please be aware that your Flatty's optimum temperature is significantly higher than even an obsolete OHV.
If you have overheating that is posing mechanical problems, please pressuretest your manifold first.

....Cotten

[Baytown]

10% Ethanol Blend

Ethanol is being pushed here in Oz, at a 10% blend. Especially where I live due to the Sugar Cane industry.
I won't use it in my vehicles, as I think it's unsound from an environmental POV. Apparently takes so much energy to manufacture it here that emission wise, it's a wast of time. As far as extending petroleum stocks though, it has obvious merit. There's also a loss of power.
That being said, I'll only put 100% 92 - 95 ROM fuel in my Indians. (My Chief has hardened valve seats in it though, but there's too many unknowns for long-term use.) Especially if Terry says it's no good for our 'You Beaut' new floats.

Best wishes.

Ken.

[T. Cotten]

Ken!

Yes, it takes more energy to produce the ethanol than it yields.

In the USA, the entire annual corn crop could be converted, ruining the byproduct and feed industries, and still not make a dent in national automobile consumption.
Ethanol by itself is a great fuel, but politiks (i.e. the petroleum lobby, etc.) won't let it be.

My Durable floats are absolutely inert in all blends, including methanol, MTBE, and even methylene chloride paint stripper: Zero failures.
I'm not familiar with "Terry", and he must not be familiar with my floats!

....Cotten

[Carl N. Olsen]

I live in the corn belt and have been using blended ethanol for years in my old knuckles and pans. I also build lots of motors for people all over the country and I use Cotton's floats in all of them. Do not worry about the ethanol blended fuel as it enhances the octain rating and burns cleaner, that translates to less pinging and less carbon build up for a more efficient running motor. Do get yourself one of Cotton's floats as the others will fail during extended use.
Carl

[AFJ]

Re: Ethanol Gas

Originally posted by Mike C.
Hi AMCA Members!
This is my first posting. I am wondering if others are concerned about the ethanol additive that is now being added to the gasoline across the nation? We are told that it is replacing MTBE which was ending up in water supply ground wells. I've been using a lead additive in my 38 Chief that I bought at a marine supply store to try and protect the valves from over heating. Does anyone know if this ethanol will make are bikes run hotter, or other precautions we should take? I hope I am posting in the correct category but if not go ahead and move it to where it would be appropriate.

With a small percentage of ethanol (5% - 15%) in normal gasoline it is worth checking (as with any other oxygenate additives like MTBE - methyl tert-butyl ether - or methanol) that the jetting is rich enough at high speed. This can be checked by looking at plug colour by the usual method or when on the road by slightly closing the choke at highway speeds and seeing if the bike picks up a bit of speed without the throttle being opened.

It is also worth checking to see if slightly less ignition advance is needed at speed as the flame front speed in the combustion chamber with unleaded and oxygenated fuels may be qucker than the original timing figure if that was determined by the maker when using leaded fuels.

With engines such as old sidevalves where there may be little or no valve stem lubrication, it may be a good idea to add some "top oil" to the gasoline at the rate of an eggcup per gallon. This was a reccomendation when some of these engines were new and it appears that modern gasolines may have even less lubricity, in part due to the alcohol content.

AFJ

[HarleyCreation]

Re: Re: Ethanol Gas

Originally posted by AFJ


With engines such as old sidevalves where there may be little or no valve stem lubrication, it may be a good idea to add some "top oil" to the gasoline at the rate of an eggcup per gallon. This was a reccomendation when some of these engines were new and it appears that modern gasolines may have even less lubricity, in part due to the alcohol content.

AFJ

I was going to bring this up too. Years ago a friend of my with a Big Twin flathead H-D (can't recall if it was a 74 or an 80) had the usual overheating problems when trying to run at sustained highway speeds. He used to add oil to his gas. Did it help? I don't know. But it made him feel better.

I will also admit to having added Marvel Mystery Oil to the gas of my air-cooled BMW out of the faulty belief that it may extend the life of the valve-seats, etc. I've been told by guys smarter than me that it won't help squat but again, giving that old (1976) motor its "medicine" makes ME feel better. Plus MMO has a nice pepperminty smell....

In the chainsaw world (which I also inhabit) guys simply rave about Mobil MX2T 2-stroke oil made for dirt-bikes. Chainsaw 2-strokes rev up to like 14,000 rpm with little toy pieces so seizure and blow-ups are a constant worry. I wonder if adding MX2T (or something similar) to a flathead motorcycle engine would help it out?

Opinions?

[T. Cotten]

Additives may sooth a symptom, but if a motor is over-heating, the cause is most likely a mechanical problem that cannot be fixed out of a bottle.

....Cotten
(Exception: military leg guards are a non-mechanical cause of overheating. I guess so is two adults, two children, and full camping gear load on a sidecar facing a 40 mph headwind on the Interstate. )

[petri]

Well we have 10% ethanol around here in the higher octane gas which I used in my 78 BMW. The bike ran fine but it ate the original gas cap seal which crumbled apart. It was not a rubber based seal. I ordered a new one which is clearly made of a different material but I haven't run ethanol in the bike again as I can get plain hi test. I am now worried about other parts of the system fuel lines, floats. The fuel lines are newly replaced so the may be ok but I don't know about my floats, they are old.

Yes valve seats are a worry and if I thought MMO would help I have some. I used to put it in my 1940 Waco biplane that had a 220 Continental radial engine. I could use a little avgas in the bike but av gas actually has about 4 times the lead content of old auto gas and it's not legal because no road use taxes are paid on the fuel. So I can't just buy some but I can get some if I really want it.

Any thoughts about using E85 in old motorcycles which is 85% ethanol.

Howard

[T. Cotten]

Howard!

If your old motorcycle is a flatty, it might not run hot enough.

Mike Brown demonstrated many years ago that a vintage OHV would run on 95% ethanol with 5% water, requiring that the motor start out de-coked, and of course the jets opened wide.

But to make a mix with gasoline, all water must be removed. That's where the economics go sour.
Still, with enlarged carb orifices, I'm sure many designs will still run on 85%,...if you can get them started.

...Cotten

[AFJ]

Originally posted by petri
Well we have 10% ethanol around here in the higher octane gas which I used in my 78 BMW. The bike ran fine but it ate the original gas cap seal which crumbled apart. It was not a rubber based seal. I ordered a new one which is clearly made of a different material but I haven't run ethanol in the bike again as I can get plain hi test. I am now worried about other parts of the system fuel lines, floats. The fuel lines are newly replaced so the may be ok but I don't know about my floats, they are old.

Yes valve seats are a worry and if I thought MMO would help I have some. I used to put it in my 1940 Waco biplane that had a 220 Continental radial engine. I could use a little avgas in the bike but av gas actually has about 4 times the lead content of old auto gas and it's not legal because no road use taxes are paid on the fuel. So I can't just buy some but I can get some if I really want it.

Any thoughts about using E85 in old motorcycles which is 85% ethanol.

Howard

Sounds like you are getting gas with methanol not ethanol. the original plastic floats in the Bing carbs used in the '78-era BMWs was adversely affected by methanol, less so by ethanol. Replacement floats sold by Bing and BMW have been alcohol-proof for many years now.
My own '78 BMW R100/7 runs fine on 94 octane Sunoco gas with 10% ethanol, but possibly an earlier owner had the carbs serviced. The usual sign of fuel-affected floats is rich running and poor fuel mileage as the floats tend to sink. As I'm still using only 4.5L/100km (52 miles per US gallon), it looks like things are OK.

AFJ

[Baytown]

Originally posted by T. Cotten
Ken!
My Durable floats are absolutely inert in all blends, including methanol, MTBE, and even methylene chloride paint stripper: Zero failures.
I'm not familiar with "Terry", and he must not be familiar with my floats!
....Cotten

Ah, now I feel stupid, I thought after all these years of being on the same e-mail lists as you, and replying to you directly that your first name was Terry!
Sorry mate. I also obviously misread your prior post re the Ethanol vs the new float material.

Any way, good to know that the floats will be fine, as I fitted one as soon as they were available.

Best wishes Cotten.
(what is your first name????)

[T. Cotten]

Ken!

My first name is Thomas, but using 'Cotten' has spared me from tribal nicknames, as everyone assumed I already had one.

....Cotten

[petri]

As far as I know we have ethanol additive not metahnol. At least that's what the pumps say but then, you can't believe everything you read can you? In any case that old gas cap seal just started crumbling away. Fortunately none of it got into the gas tank. I think it was made of some kind of silicone or plastic based material. It was fairly thick too and made a big mess.

I really don't think that the carbs have ever been opened up and rebuilt so the original floats are still in there. This is also a 78 R100/7 AFJ so thanks for letting me know I have plastic floats in there. I'd better do something about them soon.

Yes Cotton from what I've read so far our engines should run just fine on alcohol "if properly prepared. This is an OHV engine but as you point out the jets need to be opened up. Around 30% more area I think for E85. Now with these Bings with needles would one just open the jet below by drilling it out?

I haven't worried too much about gas prices with the motorcycle; it's the most fuel efficient vehicle I own. But it's killing me to fuel my truck. Still it would be noce to not worry about whether there is alcohol in the fuel when I pull into a gas station so I need to get the dissolvable components out of there. The BMW is not getting 55mpg, maybe in the high 30's so perhaps the floats have been attacked.

I'm tired of paying ransom to the oil barons for their product anyway and am all for changing over to greater alcohol use. It may take more energy to produce than you get from it but if that ennergy can come from hydroelectric power or or some other renewable source that's just the price you pay to get the energy into a form you can use. After all, we use energy to make a lot of consumer goods. But we want them so we do it anyway. It will put more land and people to work right here in the US and and it's renewable.

Howard

[T. Cotten]

Once again I must stress:

Ethanol alone doesn't eat rubbers and plastics.

Additives associated with ethanol blends, such as detergents and un-disclosed "cleaning agents" are the culprits.

Petroleum companies are very tight-lipped about what these compounds are, and the longterm environmental and health effects as well.

....Cotten