1903 Rumor

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by rww
The earliest record of Perry Mack in Milwaukee is from 1899 when he was married to his first of 3 wives. This is shortly after he left his second home in Pender, Neb. Even his son William, who Perry conceived with his third wife, didn't know about Perry's first marriage. Just goes to show ya how facts get lost over the years.

Perry was not in the city directory in 1900 or 1901. He showed up in 1902, occupation-machinist. That was his occupation until 1911
when he was listed as a "Auto Opr". During this period he lived at
six different Milwaukee addresses.

In his divorce paperwork from his first wife she refered to him as an "inventor". This was before any of his work with the Waverley motor which came out in the fall of 1910. What did he invent? A patent search shows Perry had no inventions prior to 1910 that we know of.

rww,

That's good stuff about Perry.

Was Perry working for Harley-Davidson as a machinist?

If so, for how long before the June race? That would really place him on the ground floor. And doesn't it state in his obituary that at one time he did work for Harley-Davidson? I guess I can see where you wonder what important input on that bike he may have had. What's also interesting is that Harley-Davidson NEVER mentioned Perry's role in any of their histories. Who even dreamed that Mack was involved with Harley-Davidson until that 1905 article in the Milwaukee Journal turned up?

Another very curious set of circumstances with a lot of unexplained mysteries.

Also: Was the bike Perry was riding that day his own machine or was it a "factory" bike?

I guess we don't know that either...

Either way, he must have already had a close association with the boys for some period of time before that for them to either to sell him one of their very first machines or to let him race one of theirs with only a few (4?) in existence.

They must have known Perry. But was he also working for them? And if so, for how long?

[Paquette]

Herb--I know you are familuar with microfilm as I have read your notes, and did not mean it as an insult, only to inform those who might not have been exposed to historical methods of research. Yes it taxes the eyes and often seems to be going nowhere when--EURIKA!!! That missing piece of the puzzle is found. That is what happened to me while doing my thesis. What about Chicago papers, anyone out there ever look at those? As you state in one of your books Lang " heard about" the Harley-Davidson. Do you know how he heard? From your research I think the timeline is pretty much established except for the first "motorbike" which may never be found.

[33vld]

1903 Rumor

Herb, we have no proof such as work records or photos or early histories that Perry actually worked for Harley-Davidson. What we have is the 1905 Milwaukee Journal photo that you found showing Mack with a 1905 HD after a race. We have numerous newspaper articles saying Perry raced Harleys in 1905. We have the statement from Perry's son that Perry worked for HD.(by the way, Perry's son is still living in wisconsin) We have Perry's obituary that says he worked for HD. We have the 1912 magazine article that says he designed the engine of the motorcycle he rode at Chicago in 1905. We know he lived in Milwaukee near HD in 1905 and that he was a machinist.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck it must be a duck. That's the theory anyway.

When he started working at HD I don't know. We believe he left HD in 1906. Perry's son William said that there was some bad blood between HD and Perry but that is also unknown for sure.
And why there is no mention of Perry in any of the early HD histories or stories I can't answer either. But we know for a fact he was there in 1905 with HD as a racer.

Gotta keep looking for that one document that will answer all our questions. Turns out it's like looking for a needle in a hay stack as you well know.

[c.o.]

I might be re-posting things that have already been said, but with the vastness of the forum I don't have the time to do a complete review!!! I just received a copy of 'Yesterdays' Motorcycles' by Bob Karolevitz in the mail. He states that William and Arthur had help from a German immigrant that had knowledge of the De Dion engine. It states that he assisted in their earliest experiments.

It also states that an un-named friend made his shop available to the boys. Apparently the shop came complete with a lathe and drill-press that was operated by a gas engine. It also states that the German was a draftsman and he helped make the parts that were apparently designed by William. Then of course Ole Evinrude came into the picture with the his expertise.

The article also goes back to the tomato can theory. All this information was said to come from "Company lore". He also goes onto state that eight machines were produced in 1904.

Now I'm not sure how credible this info is, but since I read it I thought it worth mentioning. I hope I haven't repeated too much!

[LouieMCman]

I agree the thread is too long to review the whole thing. But maybe, just maybe the early H-D's are a improved copys of a Merkel and other early bikes. Maybe they were just at the right place at the right time in history? Maybe they were the original copy and improve Japanese engineering technicians? NAAA.............

Louie

[Paquette]

C.O. --You are correct these items have already been discussed in the forum and also in Herbert Wagner's " At the Creation". It is a must read if you want the truth about the origins of H-D .

[c.o.]

Thanks Paquette! I thought what I posted may have been covered. I have been in fact following the thread, but it's an awful big read to review! I'll have to round-up Herbert's book.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Paquette
Herb--I know you are familuar with microfilm as I have read your notes, and did not mean it as an insult, only to inform those who might not have been exposed to historical methods of research. Yes it taxes the eyes and often seems to be going nowhere when--EURIKA!!! That missing piece of the puzzle is found. That is what happened to me while doing my thesis. What about Chicago papers, anyone out there ever look at those? As you state in one of your books Lang " heard about" the Harley-Davidson. Do you know how he heard? From your research I think the timeline is pretty much established except for the first "motorbike" which may never be found.

Yes, the early Harley-Davidson timeline seems pretty well established. Lots of guys (including me) were completely puzzled by the "official" story -- including some guys right inside the Harley-Davidson company! Plus, some of our founding club members (so I've heard) tried to figure out Harley's first years and sequence of bikes and came away confused. Modern Harley guys too. It didn't make sense. Now it does when you figure in 2 different bikes with production beginning in 1905 and not 1903!

I'd have to go check to be sure of the title, but I believe the "Chicago Examiner" is THE newspaper to look into because that is where their first dealer Lang advertised and Chicago is where that FIRST proto H-D went and was ridden daily. I tried to find that paper at the Chicago Historical Society but they didn't have it for the 1905-190x critical period. Maybe it's somewhere else....

Lang didn't say how he heard of the Harley-Davidson motorcycle. Just that he first heard of it in the fall of 1904. However, his business then was a piano tool manufacturer and he could have been in Milwaukee during the fall of 1904 on business when the boys raced the Harley-Davidson at State Fair Park. He was already a motorcycle buff at that time.

Just as likely (or maybe more so) there were riders in that same race FROM Chicago. It's possible they went back home and told of an exciting new machine called Harley-Davidson that they saw and went up against in the race. Or maybe watched from the grandstand.

It is a coincidence that the first known appearance of the Harley-Davidson shows up in a Sept. 1904 Milwaukee newpaper race clipping, and then years later (1914) Lang says he first heard of the Harley-Davidson in the "fall of 1904."

Connection?

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by rww
Herb, we have no proof such as work records or photos or early histories that Perry actually worked for Harley-Davidson. What we have is the 1905 Milwaukee Journal photo that you found showing Mack with a 1905 HD after a race. We have numerous newspaper articles saying Perry raced Harleys in 1905. We have the statement from Perry's son that Perry worked for HD.(by the way, Perry's son is still living in wisconsin) We have Perry's obituary that says he worked for HD. We have the 1912 magazine article that says he designed the engine of the motorcycle he rode at Chicago in 1905. We know he lived in Milwaukee near HD in 1905 and that he was a machinist.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck it must be a duck. That's the theory anyway.

When he started working at HD I don't know. We believe he left HD in 1906. Perry's son William said that there was some bad blood between HD and Perry but that is also unknown for sure.
And why there is no mention of Perry in any of the early HD histories or stories I can't answer either. But we know for a fact he was there in 1905 with HD as a racer.

Gotta keep looking for that one document that will answer all our questions. Turns out it's like looking for a needle in a hay stack as you well know.

Dick,

If that document is out there I'm confident that YOU will find it -- unless I find it first!

Hmm.....I don't think Bill Mack told me about that "bad blood" thing between his father and H-D, but it's something to consider.

I wonder: In the June 1905 Milwaukee Journal photo/clipping does it say Perry was riding "his" Harley-Davidson or "the" Harley-Davidson motorcycle?

Dang it. That stuff is filed away right now, but I don't think it says "his." Small point to be sure, but for some reason I've always thought he was riding a "company" machine and not his own. But why would I think that?

Perry could have told us so much. Doesn't the author Harry Sucher say somewhere that he interviewed Perry E. Mack or am I dreaming stuff again?

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by c.o.
I might be re-posting things that have already been said, but with the vastness of the forum I don't have the time to do a complete review!!! I just received a copy of 'Yesterdays' Motorcycles' by Bob Karolevitz in the mail. He states that William and Arthur had help from a German immigrant that had knowledge of the De Dion engine. It states that he assisted in their earliest experiments.

It also states that an un-named friend made his shop available to the boys. Apparently the shop came complete with a lathe and drill-press that was operated by a gas engine. It also states that the German was a draftsman and he helped make the parts that were apparently designed by William. Then of course Ole Evinrude came into the picture with the his expertise.

The article also goes back to the tomato can theory. All this information was said to come from "Company lore". He also goes onto state that eight machines were produced in 1904.

Now I'm not sure how credible this info is, but since I read it I thought it worth mentioning. I hope I haven't repeated too much!

Hi C.O.,

The info you quote from the Karolevitz book first appeared in a 1912 article in MotorCycling mag. That same info was expanded and somewhat rewritten in a 1914 Milwaukee Journal article.

Almost every modern Harley-Davidson history (starting with stuff written around 1970) used those early articles as their source. However, by the time those articles were written in 1912/1914, the origin story of Harley-Davidson had been badly messed up by their advertising writer: S. Lacy Croilius. That mess had started back in 1908 when Harley-Davidson was trying to out-perform Indian in every way including being a pioneer in the motorcycle business. In the process Harley made some wildly impossible claims that couldn't possibly be true but have fooled (or puzzled) guys for generations. At one point Harley-Davidson even claimed to have sold motorcycles in 1901!

The one accurate origin timeline was in the Enthusiast mag written for the 50th Anniversary. But for some reason Harley-Davidson didn't use that one when they started writing histories in the 1970s, but instead relied on the messed-up 1912-1914 stuff. Big mistake IMO. That said, the 1912-1914 stuff has great value too, so long as you know you're walking a tightrope over a vat of boiling 50 weight when you start believing it.

Re: 1904 H-Ds. A guy could go INSANE trying to decide who to believe about how many bikes Harley-Davidson built in 1904. I have charted many sources and they range all the way from just one bike to a honking eight bikes!

I lean towards the one bike figure, but leave open the possibility of maybe one(?) more....

The entire case is not solved yet and many mysteries remain. The early story of Harley-Davidson is a lot more interesting and involved than anyone ever dreamed. The only one that tops it is Pennington IMO.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by LouieMCman
I agree the thread is too long to review the whole thing. But maybe, just maybe the early H-D's are a improved copys of a Merkel and other early bikes. Maybe they were just at the right place at the right time in history? Maybe they were the original copy and improve Japanese engineering technicians? NAAA.............

Louie

I'll say it's getting long....but always intriguing.

Actually you hit the nail on the head. We don't realize how fast things were moving in the years 1901-1903. The 1901 designs were obsolete almost overnight to guys like Merkel, Mitchell, Curtiss, etc. But while Merkel "seems" to have invented the modern loop-frame (actually there were some earlier ones), it was Harley-Davidson that seems to have made the type famous. Even Indian threw in the towel in 1909 and was forced to adopt the loop-frame. After that the earlier story got lost and/or messed up as events raced forward. Only now are we beginning to sort it out.

[jurassic]

1908 evidence

hi herb,just thought i'd let you know the 1908 motorcycle illustrated that you refer to in your book is now for sale on ebay.an original copy that has an interview with walter davidson in which he states that his company has been in business for 4 years.straight from the horses mouth. ebay # 4626121950

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 1908 evidence

Originally posted by jurassic
hi herb,just thought i'd let you know the 1908 motorcycle illustrated that you refer to in your book is now for sale on ebay.an original copy that has an interview with walter davidson in which he states that his company has been in business for 4 years.straight from the horses mouth. ebay # 4626121950

I'm sure the mag is out of my price range, but thanks for the tip. It might help someone else.

Let's do some ciphering once:

1905--Year 1st
1906--Year 2nd
1907--Year 3rd
1908--Year 4th

Yup, the year 1908 would have been the 4th year of business operations.

I always knew old Walter was an honest man!

Here's a trivia detail for you guys. Of the four founders of Harley-D, old Walter Davidson is the only one I don't think that I've ever see a nickname given for! Not that he didn't have one. Maybe he did. But I can't think of ever running across it, altho I have for the other three.

[Baytown]

At the Creation

How can I get a copy of "At the Creation" in Australia?
Do you know if there is a local distributor of shop with sells it.
I've done a few searches and it doesn't come up.
If able, I'm happy to purchase direct from you in the US.

Thanks for any info re this, and best wishes.

Ken.

[HarleyCreation]

Baytown:

I'll contact the publisher and get an answer for you.

Thanks for asking,
HW