1903 Rumor

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Paquette
I still wonder where Harley and Davidson received the kind of training that would allow them to #1 make patterns and #2 make castings from those patterns. Were there vocational training programs available in Wisconsin high schools? Did the "boys" even graduate from high school?

I was told by Arthur's son (Arthur Harley Davidson) that Arthur Sr. was a "naughty" boy in school and did NOT get past the 3rd Grade, altho I'm not sure he meant that literally or not.

The "vocational training" seems to have taken place on the job at Barth Machine shop and/or Pawling & Harnischfeger and/or Evinrude's patternshop when/where Arthur later referred to himself as still being an "apprentice patternmaker" -- and that was said in 1942!

Bill Harley worked at the Meiselbach bicycle factory at age 15, held jobs as a draftsman, and did graduate from high school. He attended college where he obtained an engineering degree.

Originally posted by Paquette and #3 what role did the railroad shops have in this venture?

I believe a LOT. Wm. H. Davidson said that's what he thought too. Another old guys' father claimed to have made pieces for the "first" bike(s) there. Another old guy said there were old hand tools at Harley-Davidson with "Property of Milwaukee Road shops" stamped on them.

Originally posted by Paquette Question #4 might never be answered: Why and what? Why did Harley and Davidson want to build a motorcycle when Indian and Merkel and other makes were already in business and what made them determined to build one?

Feel free to speculate on that.

Originally posted by Paquette I think Daddy Davidson had more to do with the founding than people realise or can document--the connection with him being a woodworker and patterns is just to convienient--Overall where did the boys get their training?????? Beside Ole Evenrude--there must be other influences!!!! [/B]

Let's list some possibilities:

-- Maybe saw Pennington's Motor Cycle in 1895
-- Too lazy to pedal a bicycle to hunt & fish
-- The smell of gasoline was in the air
-- Bill Harley's artistic/creative talent & yearnings
-- Arthur Davidson's novice patternmaking ability
-- Father Davidson's shop, tools, & woodworking skills
-- the unnamed "German draughtsman's" engine knowledge
-- Henry Melk's home machine shop (and Henry himself?)
-- Ole Evinrude (already way ahead of them with engines)
-- Older brother Bill: foreman at the railshop toolroom
-- Walter's machinist expertise and perfectionist personality
-- Joe Merkel's 1903 loop-frame
-- Milwaukee being heavily industrialized with lots of job shops, foundries, etc.

What am I leaving out?

[Paquette]

Ok --lets start with this--I am speaking from a North Carolina southern point of view--In the late 1900's public school education was almost non-existant. Maybe it was the same in the north. Folks still learned by the apprentice system although that had fallen by the wayside by the time of the Indusrtial Revolution in America. We have to understand that these boys were driven, by whatever factors, to build not only a motorized bicycle, but a Motorcycle as Pennington pronounced it. Daddy Davidson must have had some influence. Can anyone imagine one of their children saying " dad we need to use your shop to build a motorbike " and dad not being there to give advise and to generally bug the crap out of them? How about records from the railroad? While done ( perhaps) on the sly they probably don't exist. As a historian, it seems to me that there are many avenues we can seek to find what exactly were the Boys motives were and when they were achevieved. While my research is into seats, saddlebags, and related accessories that Harley offered over the years, I do wish I could see every photo that tha H-D archives has!!!

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Paquette
Ok --lets start with this--I am speaking from a North Carolina southern point of view--In the late 1900's public school education was almost non-existant. Maybe it was the same in the north. Folks still learned by the apprentice system although that had fallen by the wayside by the time of the Indusrtial Revolution in America. We have to understand that these boys were driven, by whatever factors, to build not only a motorized bicycle, but a Motorcycle as Pennington pronounced it. Daddy Davidson must have had some influence. Can anyone imagine one of their children saying " dad we need to use your shop to build a motorbike " and dad not being there to give advise and to generally bug the crap out of them? How about records from the railroad? While done ( perhaps) on the sly they probably don't exist. As a historian, it seems to me that there are many avenues we can seek to find what exactly were the Boys motives were and when they were achevieved. While my research is into seats, saddlebags, and related accessories that Harley offered over the years, I do wish I could see every photo that tha H-D archives has!!!

Speaking of old man Davidson, what about old man Harley? Did he have any input or influence?

I believed he also worked for the railroad, but I can't recall his job there altho I may have it somewhere.

I don't think we can overstate Pennington's possible influence. Pennington's "Motor Cycle" was not a practical success but it was a masterpiece of wish-fulfillment and advertising promotion hype that hypnotized even sober businessmen. Pennington's Motor Cycle stimulated the imagination of everyone active in the bicycle scene of the 1890s including known guys who went on to found the motorcycle industry of the early 1900s.

While we don't ride "Penningtons" we do ride "motorcycles" and he seems to have coined that term and due to his crackpot but amazing invention it "stuck."

The Pennington story is wacky and wild and outlandlish and stranger than fiction -- but all true!

First outlaw biker too....

[Paquette]

Ok--Herbert I think you are on the money with the thought about Bill Harley's Father. This is the way I think as an historian; Put yourself in the shoes of the young men and the times they were living in-- only 30 or so years into the industrial revolution in America, monopolies and trusts being formed right and left to suplant competition, and two boys without any training that we know of in the field of pattern making, knowledge of metalurgy, or production methods decide to build a motorbike as the original lost model may be called. Yes they saw Pennington's "motorcycle" and if they were too lazy to pedal a bike why did they not just buy a Mercel or an Indian. What we need is motive, inspiration ( other than Pennington) and advantage IE. the railroad shops. and even accepting that why did the RR shops do for H-D what they ( too our knowledge) not do for any other Co. in Milwaukee? The boys fathers MUST have had a greater influence than they are given credit for. Has anyone perused the Milwaukee newspapers during the founding period to see if there are any references to Harley and Davidson building a motorized bike? ( Herbert I am sure you have)----------------

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Paquette
Ok--Herbert I think you are on the money with the thought about Bill Harley's Father. This is the way I think as an historian; Put yourself in the shoes of the young men and the times they were living in-- only 30 or so years into the industrial revolution in America, monopolies and trusts being formed right and left to suplant competition, and two boys without any training that we know of in the field of pattern making, knowledge of metalurgy, or production methods decide to build a motorbike as the original lost model may be called. Yes they saw Pennington's "motorcycle" and if they were too lazy to pedal a bike why did they not just buy a Mercel or an Indian. What we need is motive, inspiration ( other than Pennington) and advantage IE. the railroad shops. and even accepting that why did the RR shops do for H-D what they ( too our knowledge) not do for any other Co. in Milwaukee? The boys fathers MUST have had a greater influence than they are given credit for. Has anyone perused the Milwaukee newspapers during the founding period to see if there are any references to Harley and Davidson building a motorized bike? ( Herbert I am sure you have)----------------

I like the way you think about this stuff. New perspectives are good on what remains in several respects a vexing mystery.

1) Why didn't the "boys" just buy a Merkel or Indian?

Maybe they were intoxicated by the smell of raw hydro-carbons.

When you figure that Bill Harley drew his (7-ci) bicycle-motor plans in July of 1901 that was still the beginning of the beginning. Indians were not widely available yet. I doubt if anyone in Milwaukee had even heard of the Indian motorcycle (Indian experts feel free to comment). Merkel production was just beginning. So was Mitchell motorcycle production in Racine. (These were both diamond-frame jobs.) The July 1901 bicycle-motor drawing makes Bill Harley a pioneer among pioneers in a very real sense. That is completely verified and documented as fact with the surviving 1901 drawing being the Holy Grail of Harley-Davidson. Without it we'd be at sea without an anchor.

The "boys" (and their friends) obviously had ideas and enough knowledge and gumption to try and build a power-bicycle of their own. It wasn't like there were established dealerships to go to. Far from it. I suppose they could have put their order in at Merkel, but they took another route, probably dreaming they could do as good or better with home-brew. And why not? All they thought they needed was a dinky motor & mixing valve and a belt and pulley for use in "an ordinary bicycle frame."

But then -- and this is critical -- events and advancements got away from them. While they were dinking around for over two years time trying to fabricate their little engine the better established builders like Merkel and Mitchell quickly realized the diamond-frame concept was NOT the right path. Thus by 1903 when the dinky Harley and Davidson motorized-bicycle was tested (if it ever ran at all -- Earl doesn't think it did, right Earl?), these other guys had left the boys in the dust.

Probably at that point they "should" have given up and just bought a 1903 model Merkel, Mitchell, or Indian. But by then the "bug" had bitten them hard and they regrouped and tried again and this time came up with a winner with their 25-ci (Evinrude-influenced?) motor in a "borrowed" Merkel-copy chassis with a working belt-tightener that was finished sometime in 1904 -- probably the day of that Sept. race they competed in.

2) Old Newspapers

I have read old newspapers until my eyes fell out of my head. Mostly the Milwaukee Journal where I did find the oldest known reference to the loop-frame Harley-Davidson motorcycle (Sept. 1904). But there are several other Milwaukee papers (some in German) that date to that period and that still need to be read. No doubt there is more to be discovered. I kept hoping for that 1901/1904-dated "Boys Build Motor Bike in Shed" first hand account but that has NOT turned up yet. But it might be there. This is still a new and relatively unexplored field. We need a team of grad students to do additional research. And they should keep watch for Perry Mack's name too, right Dick?

[33vld]

1903 Rumor

Right Herb! I quess the biggest problem we have in regards to the first production Harley-Davdison motorcycle is the complete lack of evidence in the public record from the year it was made. No evidence exists to say with 100% accuracy when it was actually finished and who designed it and built it. The answers may still be out there. Example, I was lucky enough recently to locate an article from the Milwaukee Free Press newspaper dated June 2nd 1905 that lists the riders who will race that day at the State Fair Park mile dirt track. 3 men were on Merkels; H.A. Zerbel, W.J. Merkel and J.R. Ball. 4 men were on Harleys; Walter Davidison, Percy(Perry)Mack, Paul Hildebrandt(what happened to Edward?) and Henry Meyer. From this we now know that there were at least 4 Harley-Davdison motorcycles in existence in June of 1905 including the first one sold to Henry Meyer. Another piece of the puzzle.

Happy New Year to everybody!

[Paquette]

Newspapers are a great source for period information and one would think that two young men in Milwaukee building a motorcycle would be news worthy considering the press Pennington's motorcycle received when it came to town. At the time motorcycles were rare and that would make them news items. But I live in NC so I do not have access to Milwaukee papers so Herb get some new glasses and forge ahead!!! LOL--And a Happy New Year to all------------

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by rww
Right Herb! I quess the biggest problem we have in regards to the first production Harley-Davdison motorcycle is the complete lack of evidence in the public record from the year it was made. No evidence exists to say with 100% accuracy when it was actually finished and who designed it and built it. The answers may still be out there. Example, I was lucky enough recently to locate an article from the Milwaukee Free Press newspaper dated June 2nd 1905 that lists the riders who will race that day at the State Fair Park mile dirt track. 3 men were on Merkels; H.A. Zerbel, W.J. Merkel and J.R. Ball. 4 men were on Harleys; Walter Davidison, Percy(Perry)Mack, Paul Hildebrandt(what happened to Edward?) and Henry Meyer. From this we now know that there were at least 4 Harley-Davdison motorcycles in existence in June of 1905 including the first one sold to Henry Meyer. Another piece of the puzzle.

Happy New Year to everybody!

Dick,

That article is a good find and one I hadn't seen. It does prove that at least four H-Ds were up and running by June of 1905. Since we know the Meyer bike was the 1904 prototype, that would make three 1905 models plus another '05 already delivered to Peter Olson in Cambridge. Together that would make 5 Harleys total in existence by June of 1905. Was that all of them? We don't know that for sure either.

One thing seems true, and that is once the boys had running motorcycles the first thing they did with them was go out racing. We see it in the autumn of 1904 and we see it again in 1905. They weren't keeping their motorcycle a secret.

But like you say, before the 1904 race there is a big BLANK until you go way back to the bicycle-motor drawing of 1901.

Seems hard to believe that nothing from that long period has survived, esp. since we know they were actively working on 2 different projects during that time. I firmly believe more will turn up to help fill in the July 1901 to Sept. 1904 gap; photo, drawing, newspaper clipping, something...

Who knows. Maybe that lady in Springfield has it!

Question: We know Mack was riding a Harley-Davidson in June of 1905, but what is the next earlier evidence of what Perry was doing? Was that stuff you found in city directories? What was he doing around 1903-05? Any clues?

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Paquette
Newspapers are a great source for period information and one would think that two young men in Milwaukee building a motorcycle would be news worthy considering the press Pennington's motorcycle received when it came to town. At the time motorcycles were rare and that would make them news items. But I live in NC so I do not have access to Milwaukee papers so Herb get some new glasses and forge ahead!!! LOL--And a Happy New Year to all------------

Yeah, when you consider the publicity that Pennington got, we might expect the H-D boys had something written about their motorcycle when they first rolled it out and tested it. Possibibly such an article does exist.

When all the old newspapers become digitalized and we can do word searches by computer on them lots of additional good stuff will probably be found. I used a old periodical online database (19th century stuff) this summer and all kinds of neat material popped up just by typing in a word or name. Pennington was there. The day when the old Milwaukee papers are online and searchable will be a great day, but I ain't holding my breath for it to happen.

Yeah, I do need new glasses....and how.

[Paquette]

Ok Herb--You must be younger than I. We oldsters remember MICROFILM, you actually have to go to the library to use it. You also get a feeling for what is going on on a local and national level by perusing newspapers. I need another trip to Milwaukee so will look myself. Personally I just don't trust online or web sources, but then they did not exist when I was in grad school!!!!
Maybe I am late on this but is there a possibility that the first H-D is in a collection somewhere that they do not know what it is? Ole, Ole-------

[Earl]

Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by HarleyCreation




That article is a good find and one I hadn't seen. It does prove that at least four H-Ds were up and running by June of 1905. Since we know the Meyer bike was the 1904 prototype, that would make three 1905 models plus another '05 already delivered to Peter Olson in Cambridge. Together that would make 5 Harleys total in existence by June of 1905. Was that all of them? We don't know that for sure either.

One thing seems true, and that is once the boys had running motorcycles the first thing they did with them was go out racing. We see it in the autumn of 1904 and we see it again in 1905. They weren't keeping their motorcycle a secret.

Hi HarleyCreation.

Remember, what do we know for sure.....

That there were FOUR Harleys listed for the race. You assumed that the Cambridge bike was not one of them. We don't know that. It could have been one of the four. We don't know for sure that there were five Harley bikes on the road by June 1905. We are sure of FOUR. Just a small point, but worth bringing up. And you're right, we don't know for sure. We just need to keep placing the information as we uncover it onto the timeline that you've developed, and keep testing it........

[33vld]

1903 Rumor

The earliest record of Perry Mack in Milwaukee is from 1899 when he was married to his first of 3 wives. This is shortly after he left his second home in Pender, Neb. Even his son William, who Perry conceived with his third wife, didn't know about Perry's first marriage. Just goes to show ya how facts get lost over the years.

Perry was not in the city directory in 1900 or 1901. He showed up in 1902, occupation-machinist. That was his occupation until 1911
when he was listed as a "Auto Opr". During this period he lived at
six different Milwaukee addresses.

In his divorce paperwork from his first wife she refered to him as an "inventor". This was before any of his work with the Waverley motor which came out in the fall of 1910. What did he invent? A patent search shows Perry had no inventions prior to 1910 that we know of.

I agree with you Herb. There is more info to be found. If enough
people keep looking something will turn up.

And Paquette, when you come back to Milwaukee if I can be of any assistance feel free to ask.

[Paquette]

Thanks for the offer RWW--I might just take you up on it---

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Paquette
Ok Herb--You must be younger than I. We oldsters remember MICROFILM, you actually have to go to the library to use it. You also get a feeling for what is going on on a local and national level by perusing newspapers. I need another trip to Milwaukee so will look myself. Personally I just don't trust online or web sources, but then they did not exist when I was in grad school!!!!
Maybe I am late on this but is there a possibility that the first H-D is in a collection somewhere that they do not know what it is? Ole, Ole-------

Paquette,

Oh, I know microfilm all right. That's where I lost my eyesight. Reading years and years of the Milwaukee Journal on microfilm with no index but just READING. It's murder on the eyes but it does turn up results if you put the time into it and I did.

But it's hit and miss if you're just searching blindly (no pun intended) like I was. Once we have dates for certain events we can then cross-check other papers and then it's easier.

Thinking along those lines, it would be worthwhile reading the other Milwaukee papers from 1904 in case the boys got into print in some other manner other than the Sept. race. Something could turn up. I only had easy access to the Milwaukee Journal so the other papers for 1903-1904 are a still a potential source for early Harley-Davidson material (except for the Sept. 8 race which I believe that I did cross-check for).

Good luck to you or anyone else who may further investigate!

PS: If the "first" prototype H-D (the one seen in Neg. 599) exists in somebody's collection, I don't know of it. That bike just up and vanished after 1916.

Where did it go?

[HarleyCreation]

Re: Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by Earl



Hi HarleyCreation.

Remember, what do we know for sure.....

That there were FOUR Harleys listed for the race. You assumed that the Cambridge bike was not one of them. We don't know that. It could have been one of the four. We don't know for sure that there were five Harley bikes on the road by June 1905. We are sure of FOUR. Just a small point, but worth bringing up. And you're right, we don't know for sure. We just need to keep placing the information as we uncover it onto the timeline that you've developed, and keep testing it........

Earl:

I'm glad you brought that up. Let's double-check the chronology of the Olson bike once and see if it was likely involved in the June motorcycle events in Milwaukee.

"Bunce" delivered the bike out to Cambridge on 30 April 1905. The ride out took him 5 1/2 hours (less than 100 miles).

So, it would have been possible that they brought the bike back to Milwaukee in early June so it could race. If so, Olson wasn't riding it, but he was a mail carrier and not a speed freak. Another guy may have ridden it.

And I can see where they would have wanted every bike they had to show up at the race and Peter Olson was their pal and may have obliged them. To save time and wear and tear they could have shipped it back to Milwaukee on the train.

Good point Earl. The Olson bike "could" have participated in the June races. If it was there, nothing was mentioned of it in the Cambridge newspaper which I also read. There was, however, the June 16 "puffed up like a balloon" letter in the Cambridge press where Arthur bragged about their June racing success. I have wondered just why he sent that letter to the Cambridge paper. Possibly Olson's bike was the connection.

Altho you would think that had Olson's bike raced in Milwaukee in June, Bunce would have bragged it up in the letter, altho we can't be sure the entire letter was published.

Even the stuff we KNOW is authentic is still tricky!

Yes: four H-Ds for sure by June '05.