1903 Rumor

[HarleyCreation]

Anyone travel to Springfield yet and obtain that 1903 Harley-Davidson evidence from the nice lady at the Indian museum there?

If anyone does, I sure hope it gets posted here so we can all examine and test it against the current knowledge.

[Dkgoz]

Herb,

I doubt she would do anything to help clear up the mystery. I visited the museum last year and spent some time talking to Esta Manthos. It was an interesting visit, to say the least. The museum is on the private property of Titeflex Corp. When I first arrived a little before opening time, she was outside the museum, weeding the flowerbeds in front. The guard at the Titeflex gate diplomaticly suggested I come back a little later, which I did. I'm sure she would have told me to beat it in no uncertain terms.

Like Howard Petri, she told me some things that were a little hard to believe. Among other claims, she said she has the original hoop used by the inventor of basketball! Springfield is the home of the basketball hall of fame; she clearly viewed that as an evil competitor to her museum. She resents the publicity the basketball hall of fame gets from the city tourism bureau, while her museum gets little to no support.

We were talking about the paint finish on one of the display motorcycles and she mentioned a special multi-stage process Indian used. When I asked for a little more detail, she refused, because she doesn't want Harley Davidson to steal the process! As if HD would go back to a 50 year old finishing technology!

She does seem to have a lot of knowledge about Indian motorcyles and the history of the company, but I think it has a heavy bias to it. However, I give her a lot of credit for doing what she can, with what she has. The musuem was definitely worth a visit.

Dave Goesling

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Dkgoz
Herb,

I doubt she would do anything to help clear up the mystery. I visited the museum last year and spent some time talking to Esta Manthos. It was an interesting visit, to say the least. The museum is on the private property of Titeflex Corp. When I first arrived a little before opening time, she was outside the museum, weeding the flowerbeds in front. The guard at the Titeflex gate diplomaticly suggested I come back a little later, which I did. I'm sure she would have told me to beat it in no uncertain terms.

Like Howard Petri, she told me some things that were a little hard to believe. Among other claims, she said she has the original hoop used by the inventor of basketball! Springfield is the home of the basketball hall of fame; she clearly viewed that as an evil competitor to her museum. She resents the publicity the basketball hall of fame gets from the city tourism bureau, while her museum gets little to no support.

We were talking about the paint finish on one of the display motorcycles and she mentioned a special multi-stage process Indian used. When I asked for a little more detail, she refused, because she doesn't want Harley Davidson to steal the process! As if HD would go back to a 50 year old finishing technology!

She does seem to have a lot of knowledge about Indian motorcyles and the history of the company, but I think it has a heavy bias to it. However, I give her a lot of credit for doing what she can, with what she has. The musuem was definitely worth a visit.

Dave Goesling

Very interesting. Thanks. The lady seems eccentric enough to make this a job for Superman!

One never knows where something significant may turn up. It could be a dead end or something we already have. Or it could be something new and important to flesh out the full story.

It's not impossible that Indian and Harley-Davidson discussed their competing origin claims. After all, those guys all knew each other real well and may have ribbed each other behind the scenes about their various dubious advertisements. At least that seems like a logical way for something about Harley-Davidson's origin to reach Springfield. Unless it's just another teens magazine article of which there are many and that usually contradict each other.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by Earl


Hi Guys.......

Sorry I haven't been around the internet too much lately.....

I was hot on the trail of an early motor. As it was described to me, it was similiar in some ways to other known brands, but in many ways, it sounded different. I had to see it. Feel it. Measure it.

Finally tracked it down......Very unique. Similiar to another known brand, but distinctly different.

What is it?.......The jury is still out. I didn't take any pictures, so I have nothing to post here. Will continue to research it. May go back for additional measuring.

What are the possibilities that it is THE missing link to early Harley motors development? My answer: Slim to none.

What is the possibility that such a missing link motor or information still exists to be found today? My answer: Not sure, but enough of a possibility exists to keep me "out there", searching for evidence and clues.........

Hey Earl,

Didn't you conclude that little motor was probably an Erie? Or didn't that turn out to be correct?

One good thing is that what exists or is found today will probably not be junked or destroyed. We sure can't say that about what happened years ago to stuff.

My hunch is that the best chance for filling in early Harley-Davidson blanks for the 1901-1905 origin period exists in old Milwaukee photos that survive in ordinary people's family albums. People who knew Harley and Davidson and had a little cheap camera and took a photo or two that got pasted into some old crumbling album and nobody today has a clue about.

When you add up the number of guys connected with the early Harley scene it is a large group. What has really changed is Milwaukee. That neighborhood around the factory is not the same as back then. The old families have all left that area and their descendents could be anywhere.

Keep digging!

That reminds me.

In another teens article (from 1912 MotorCycling that rww found) right after mentioning the "German draughtsman" it states: "They embodied their ideas of the De Dion idea in patterns which were made in the little shop marked Exhibit No. 1. Harley was the draughtsman and Arthur D. the patternmaker."

What?

Arthur made the patterns in the little woodshed?

Hmmm....That rings true when you consider that Wm. H. Davidson told me that the woodshed (his name for it) was constructed by the Davidson boys' father for use as his own workshop and the boys took it over. Old man Davidson was an expert cabinetmaker at the railcar shops. So it makes perfect sense that Arthur would have made wooden patterns in the woodshed with his dad's tools, etc., doesn't it?

Nice little detail I didn't have before but fits in another small piece of the puzzle.....

Hey, how are Earl and Walter doing?

Any progress?

[petri]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HarleyCreation
[B]

Very interesting. Thanks. The lady seems eccentric enough to make this a job for Superman!

That would be an understatement. She is very opinionated and very much driven by of all the old rivalry and prejudice of the past between Harley Davidson and Indian. She is very knowledgeable as David Goesling points out, but very, very eccentric.

Records such as original notes by Hendee would be a very valuable asset to a dedicated researcher as you Herbert. If there are such notes how could they have stayed "submerged" for so long? She needs to be approached before her eccentricity devolves into something worse or she just passes on.

Is there no one out there in the AMCA that has any contact with this lady or museum? Is it that much on the fringe? I would think only someone she knows and respects will ever be able to find out anything about the claims she has made.

And I still wonder what Harry Sucher means by "Indian Archives" in his bibliographies. Jerry Hatfield also used that terminology in his book American Racing Motorcycles. Perhaps they have already been to Springfield

I worked in Nuclear Physics research at a cyclotron at Indiana University most of my career. Publications were always properly referenced with traceable sources. In fact, it was a major part of the work of writing a paper and no serious paper could have been written without traceable sources and be published. The referees would never have let it through. Herbert is to be congratulated for his very thorough and logical approach to his research which is well documented with sources.

Oh well, maybe somebody out there is already on the trail but is just keeping it all to themself.

Howard

[Earl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by HarleyCreation


Hey Earl,

Didn't you conclude that little motor was probably an Erie? Or didn't that turn out to be correct?

One good thing is that what exists or is found today will probably not be junked or destroyed. We sure can't say that about what happened years ago to stuff.

My hunch is that the best chance for filling in early Harley-Davidson blanks for the 1901-1905 origin period exists in old Milwaukee photos that survive in ordinary people's family albums. People who knew Harley and Davidson and had a little cheap camera and took a photo or two that got pasted into some old crumbling album and nobody today has a clue about.

When you add up the number of guys connected with the early Harley scene it is a large group. What has really changed is Milwaukee. That neighborhood around the factory is not the same as back then. The old families have all left that area and their descendents could be anywhere.

Keep digging!

That reminds me.

In another teens article (from 1912 MotorCycling that rww found) right after mentioning the "German draughtsman" it states: "They embodied their ideas of the De Dion idea in patterns which were made in the little shop marked Exhibit No. 1. Harley was the draughtsman and Arthur D. the patternmaker."

What?

Arthur made the patterns in the little woodshed?

Hmmm....That rings true when you consider that Wm. H. Davidson told me that the woodshed (his name for it) was constructed by the Davidson boys' father for use as his own workshop and the boys took it over. Old man Davidson was an expert cabinetmaker at the railcar shops. So it makes perfect sense that Arthur would have made wooden patterns in the woodshed with his dad's tools, etc., doesn't it?

Nice little detail I didn't have before but fits in another small piece of the puzzle.....

Hey, how are Earl and Walter doing?

Any progress?

The little motor I looked at this last summer, yes, turned out to be an Erie. But this recent chase was for a different motor. Someone I know, has done a lot of work with Shaw motors. But then he tells me he's run across a little motor that has the same basic bore and stroke dimensions of the Shaw. He thinks it's a Shaw, but said that it's wierd. It doesn't say Shaw on the cases, the cases are similiar but different, the cylinder is similiar but different, the timing gear cavity isn't round like a Shaw, it's much smaller like an early Harley camchest, the flywheel castings aren't like a Shaw, they're different and much thinner, etc. Basically, the only thing it has in common with a Shaw, in my opinion, is the bore and stroke. It could possibly be an early kit motor, or ????

Basic research has to ask the question,....What do we know for sure?

The answer is the bore and stroke are similar to a Shaw motor, and other than that, we don't know enough about it to make a definite identification. To be continued........

Earl and Walter are doing fine, making slow progress, and enjoying a few Christmas presents I found for them. Thanks for asking.

[HarleyCreation]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by petri
[B]

Originally posted by HarleyCreation


Very interesting. Thanks. The lady seems eccentric enough to make this a job for Superman!

That would be an understatement. She is very opinionated and very much driven by of all the old rivalry and prejudice of the past between Harley Davidson and Indian. She is very knowledgeable as David Goesling points out, but very, very eccentric.

Records such as original notes by Hendee would be a very valuable asset to a dedicated researcher as you Herbert. If there are such notes how could they have stayed "submerged" for so long? She needs to be approached before her eccentricity devolves into something worse or she just passes on.

Is there no one out there in the AMCA that has any contact with this lady or museum? Is it that much on the fringe? I would think only someone she knows and respects will ever be able to find out anything about the claims she has made.

And I still wonder what Harry Sucher means by "Indian Archives" in his bibliographies. Jerry Hatfield also used that terminology in his book American Racing Motorcycles. Perhaps they have already been to Springfield

I worked in Nuclear Physics research at a cyclotron at Indiana University most of my career. Publications were always properly referenced with traceable sources. In fact, it was a major part of the work of writing a paper and no serious paper could have been written without traceable sources and be published. The referees would never have let it through. Herbert is to be congratulated for his very thorough and logical approach to his research which is well documented with sources.

Oh well, maybe somebody out there is already on the trail but is just keeping it all to themself.

Howard

I agree totally. Putting down ones sources to establish a credible trail for others to follow is essential. I got sick and tired of reading undocumented claims about Harley-Davidson's origin and then seeing them repeated or contradicted in other works over the course of years and decades, each one obtaining additional changes or alterations that crept into the picture like invasive rust in a gas-tank.

By the time the story got down to the early 1970s and the 75th it was so muddled and messed up and confused that I decided that if there was going to be an origin book about Harley-Davidson done by me, it MUST be footnoted and documented in detail so I couldn't be accused later of making stuff up, copying the other guy's error, or regurgitating bad old copy from some advertising hack 90 years ago (i.e. Mr. Lacy Crolius).

Indian Archives does sound impressive, but I have no idea what that might mean. But since this lead is now public, I'm confident somebody in the near future will visit Mrs. Manthos about this supposed "1903" evidence.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by Earl



The little motor I looked at this last summer, yes, turned out to be an Erie. But this recent chase was for a different motor. Someone I know, has done a lot of work with Shaw motors. But then he tells me he's run across a little motor that has the same basic bore and stroke dimensions of the Shaw. He thinks it's a Shaw, but said that it's wierd. It doesn't say Shaw on the cases, the cases are similiar but different, the cylinder is similiar but different, the timing gear cavity isn't round like a Shaw, it's much smaller like an early Harley camchest, the flywheel castings aren't like a Shaw, they're different and much thinner, etc. Basically, the only thing it has in common with a Shaw, in my opinion, is the bore and stroke. It could possibly be an early kit motor, or ????

Basic research has to ask the question,....What do we know for sure?

The answer is the bore and stroke are similar to a Shaw motor, and other than that, we don't know enough about it to make a definite identification. To be continued........

Earl and Walter are doing fine, making slow progress, and enjoying a few Christmas presents I found for them. Thanks for asking.

May I ask what the bore & stroke of this little mystery motor are?

I'm glad to hear that Earl and Walter had a nice Christmas and they received some presents. Did they open the presents themselves or did you help them?

So then Arthur made the first patterns in his dad's little backyard workshop, and then they used Henry Melk's home machine shop to make pieces for the 1901 motor. That's what it says! What do you think about that?

[Earl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by HarleyCreation


May I ask what the bore & stroke of this little mystery motor are?

I'm glad to hear that Earl and Walter had a nice Christmas and they received some presents. Did they open the presents themselves or did you help them?

So then Arthur made the first patterns in his dad's little backyard workshop, and then they used Henry Melk's home machine shop to make pieces for the 1901 motor. That's what it says! What do you think about that?

Stroke was 3 inches. Bore was about .020 shy of 2.750

Earl and Walter can't walk yet, so I pretty much have to do everything for them right now.

Doesn't add up. How could they make patterns for a 1901 motor in a shed that wasn't even erected until sometime a few years later? And pattern making for cases, cylinder, piston, etc, would require a wood lathe, etc. What's the earliest mention of any power equipment being added to said outdoor shed? The stories don't make sense to me. They sound nice, but don't pass all the logical tests.

[Paquette]

Wow, You guys are giving some real thought to this!!! LOL. Pattern making is an art itself. I believe popular knowledge has it that Daddy Davidson was a cabinetmaker or woodworker, otherwise why would he build a shop in his backyard during the horse and buggy days? I wonder as an old woodcrafter if any of his furniture is extant. Maybe he made the the patterns for the "boys" as we see no documentation of them attending vocational school or have any training what so ever, or did they? Are there any records from local schools that still exist? Research can go in many directions if one does not get pidgenholed on just one track. The major benefit of a historian using end or footnotes as Herbert did, is not only documenting your research, 2 different researchers may come to very different conclusions about the same primary documents. That is what keeps historical writing alive and makes us continue to seek the Grail of knowledge. I believe Herbert is right, the answers lie in some photo album or unknown diary or somewhere. After all, he found the early motor drawing right under his nose.

[HarleyCreation]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by Earl
[B]


Stroke was 3 inches. Bore was about .020 shy of 2.750

Any idea of the general year of manufacture?

Please choose one of the following:

a) 1901-1902
b) 1903-1905
c) 1906-1908

Originally posted by Earl
[B]Earl and Walter can't walk yet, so I pretty much have to do everything for them right now.

You are such a good father.

Question is: Who is Walter and Earl's mother?

Originally posted by Earl
Doesn't add up. How could they make patterns for a 1901 motor in a shed that wasn't even erected until sometime a few years later? And pattern making for cases, cylinder, piston, etc, would require a wood lathe, etc. What's the earliest mention of any power equipment being added to said outdoor shed? The stories don't make sense to me. They sound nice, but don't pass all the logical tests.

I swear Earl sometimes I think you have a working Ouija Board and are in direct contact with the ghosts of "Buck" and "Bunce."

I'm not sure we know when the woodshed was actually constructed. That seems to be another vague conflicting claim. Some accounts say the boys built it. But when you look at the photo, you can see that it is nicely constructed and more probably the work of old man Davidson which is what Wm. H. said. He seemed to know that for a fact.

We do know that the Davidson family moved out there on the corner of Highland Bld. around 1896, so it is possible in my mind the shed could have existed by 1901. And if it was the workshop of old man Davidson, who was a woodworker, there should have been some woodworking tools in there Arty might have used.

But a wood-lathe? Good point. No mention of one. Were there foot-operated wood-lathes? No mention of power in the shed until later.

Don't give up Earl. We've got the framework set up and the broad brushstrokes set down. Now it's just a matter of arranging the details in a logical manner. Get that Ouija Board going!

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Paquette
[B]Wow, You guys are giving some real thought to this!!! LOL. Pattern making is an art itself. I believe popular knowledge has it that Daddy Davidson was a cabinetmaker or woodworker, otherwise why would he build a shop in his backyard during the horse and buggy days? I wonder as an old woodcrafter if any of his furniture is extant. Maybe he made the the patterns for the "boys" as we see no documentation of them attending vocational school or have any training what so ever, or did they?

"Maybe he (old man Davidson) made the patterns for the boys."

Hmmm....I never thought of that.

Let's regroup once:

What we "know" (think we know) is that Arty (Bunce) was living out on his grandmother's farm from around 1896/7 to 1900/1901. Until then no mention of his being a patternmaker, but a farm laborer. Then he got a letter from "Buck" (Harley) saying of lots of good jobs in Milwaukee so he comes home around 1900/1901. Then they are working together in the same shop with Arty being an "apprentice" patternmaker. This is around same the time the "German draughtsman" instructs them (shows them drawings?) of the de Dion engine. In July of 1901 Harley drew up plans for the dinky bicycle-motor.

That much seems fairly clear.

So, if the woodshed was there in 1901, and it was old man Davidson's woodworking shop, it does seem logical for Arty to start using it to make wooden patterns with his father instructing and/or helping him with this interesting new engine project. And yes, because Arty was just starting out, maybe the old man did some of the work too. Maybe some of the patternwork was taken over to the famous railcar shops again and worked on there as "govt. work."

Also: (which I totally forgot until now), around this period Arthur also worked for a time in a pattern-shop enterprise with Ole Evinrude, which I want to say was 1902/03.

So, just speculating here, were the 1901 bicycle-motor patterns started in the woodshed; and as Arty gained experience and was working with Ole the 2nd motor design patterns were made in Ole's pattern-shop?

When you consider that the 2nd Harley engine shared features with Ole's 1903 engine that sort of falls in place too.....

Originally posted by Paquette
Are there any records from local schools that still exist? Research can go in many directions if one does not get pidgenholed on just one track. The major benefit of a historian using end or footnotes as Herbert did, is not only documenting your research, 2 different researchers may come to very different conclusions about the same primary documents. That is what keeps historical writing alive and makes us continue to seek the Grail of knowledge. I believe Herbert is right, the answers lie in some photo album or unknown diary or somewhere. After all, he found the early motor drawing right under his nose.

Agreed. You have read and re-read the material over and over to glean the full import of it. And the more guys doing it the better. We have the framework up but many of the details remain open to question and testing with our BS detectors turned up to high. Harley's origin is tantalizing because it was handled so poorly in the past.

[Earl]

Exactly how old were Arthur Davidson and Bill Harley in July 1901?

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Earl
Exactly how old were Arthur Davidson and Bill Harley in July 1901?

Glad you asked:

William Sylvester Harley, born: 29 December 1880

Arthur Davidson, born: 11 February 1881

[Paquette]

I still wonder where Harley and Davidson received the kind of training that would allow them to #1 make patterns and #2 make castings from those patterns. Were there vocational training programs available in Wisconsin high schools? Did the "boys" even graduate from high school? and #3 what role did the railroad shops have in this venture? Question #4 might never be answered: Why and what? Why did Harley and Davidson want to build a motorcycle when Indian and Merkel and other makes were already in business and what made them determined to build one? And while I am thinking about it, yes Herbert I think Daddy Davidson had more to do with the founding than people realise or can document--the connection with him being a woodworker and patterns is just to convienient--Overall where did the boys get their training?????? Beside Ole Evenrude--there must be other influences!!!!