1903 Rumor

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 1903 rumor

Originally posted by rww
I would love to see these notes refering to the 1903 Harley-Davdison. Can't somebody who lives near the museum stop and ask the lady to let us see them? Any and all information is needed to finally put to rest the myth of the 1903 Harley-Davdison motorcycle. With Harley's new museum just around the corner we need to know what the truth is. At this point in time there is no evidence from the year 1903 that a complete and running (motorcycle) was ever built. No drawings, blueprints, photographs, letters, articles, diaries, notes, etc. Nothing! There were plenty of stories written years later but nothing from 1903. Herb and Earl and Bruce did the research and came up empty handed as far as 1903 is concerned. Nobody is trying to make HD look bad.

Far from it.

There is no problem whatsoever with saying the Harley-Davdison Motor Co. started in 1903. You could say they started in 1901 for that matter. What the Harley-Davdison Motor Co. has done in the last 102 years is just incredible. Almost mythological. It's just that with the evidence we have today it shows they(HD) didn't build a complete, working, full frame, big motor motorcyle untill 1904 and didn't start producing motorcycles until 1905. It's not difficult. The evidence is there. Read Herb's book.

I myself have been looking hard for the last 10 years into the life of Perry E. Mack which took me to places and times that connect directly to Harley's very early history. I have found unknown facts and photographs. I have found memorabilia. I have found legal documents. The earliest information I found about Perry E. Mack was from 1870. I have never found anything from the year 1903 to support the myth that there was a 1903 Harley-Davdison motorcycle produced.

If these notes exist, bring it on. Hopefully they were written in 1903 or 1904. That would be the information everybody has been looking for. And to all you fellow club members, check your local libraries, historical societies, museums and local goverment records. Look at old newspaper microfiche. Old magazines in university libraries. Check with relatives and ask to see old family photo albums. Just because you don't live in Milwaukee doesn't mean you won't find anything. People move. Businesses move. The purpose of a motorcycle is to go someplace else. I found Perry's family bible in Nebraska along with his school records. The people who had these items didn't have a clue who Perry E. Mack was. Most ordinary people don't have a clue what that picture of great grandpa's old motorcycle really is. You would be suprised to find what is in your families past if you only look. Somewhere, somebody has a photograph of the first Harley-Davdison taken a short time after it was built. Just exactly when is what we need to know. Prove me wrong.

I totally agree and you stated it all very well.

I would like to see those "1903" claims too. Very much so. My hunch is that if it exists, it dates NOT from 1903-1904, but more like from 1908-1916 period when they were competing as to who could create the most effective advertisements that unfortunately in some cases have come down to the present as the gospel truth.

Like you say, Harley's new museum is right around the corner and it's vital how they handle the "1903" question. With a little tweaking they could have it all including a MUCH better and more interesting story than the faulty paragraph they have now. But it's their museum and they can do what they want with it....

It was my love for Harley-Davidson that got me started on this quest. When Wm. H. Davidson himself raised questions about the origin of Harley-Davidson. I thought that if the past-president of the Motor Company has unanswered questions, there was some mystery at hand yet to be discovered. Then, in anticipation of the 95th, Marty and Ray took the "Lobby Bike" apart, measured the flywheels, and let Bruce look at it and compare it to Tommy's motor. When I heard what they were up to I turned them on to the oldest known visual representation of a Harley: the fenderless "Line Drawing" from early 1905. Then things just started falling out of the sky like magic with Neg. 599 which I found and Earl and Bruce nearly had heart attacks when they saw it ("Earliest Harley I've EVER seen!"), then the Grail-like John Harley Family 1901 bicycle-motor drawing, and then Earl's great discovery of the current oldest known Harley-Davidson photo of a 1905 model without fenders! Then, to top it all off, came Herb Glass's 1908 advance bulletin that gave H-D's earliest known ORIGIN story that blew the lid off the pot because for the 1st time we had an origin account that made SENSE and solved all the contradictions and nutty inconsistencies of later origin accounts. It was a very exciting and open time when everyone was searching and reaching out and that started when Marty and Ray cracked open and measured those flywheels which were NOT 11 1/2 inches like everybody always said and thought!

After that it was like: What else ain't right?

As it turned out: Lots else....

You are also correct to say that there are NO 1903 artifacts or evidence known to date from that year. Zero. And you KNOW that because in your dogged search for Perry E. Mack material you have dug deep and then deeper.

And yes: There is more out there to be found. I'm confident you are right. I had very limited resources to do research and couldn't travel great distances or stay in hotels. Sometimes I camped out with my bike and luckily my relatives live near Milwaukee. But with some help and uncanny "luck" I did find enough to create a new and logical working framework for Harley's first years without recourse to time travel, logical gymnastics, or magical lathe jokes.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Paquette
[B]I noticed the endnotes right off the bat and frankly was the reason I bought the book ( and soon after your other ones).After all those years in graduate school, I have a hard time reading non fiction works without documentation, but I guess that is just my training.

Then I guess all that extra endnote work was not in vain. I appreciate that.

Originally posted by Paquette As an interesting note, I received some info on seats from the H-D archives yesterday and the first one listed is a Troxel bicycle for the 1903/1904 model . I guess they still can't make up their mind !!!!

You have just run across another of the many, many, many inconsistencies.

Were there 2 separate 1903 and 1904 models/bikes or not?

Or was there just one "combined" bike for those 2 years that we can generously define by an inception sometime in 1903 and its completion in 1904?

Based on my research everything points to it being the latter case.

Does that info give a source or documentation for the Troxel seat claim for 1903/1904?

Probably not, and that is most likely the seat brand that was/is on the Lobby Bike. But didn't Ray change that seat when the bike lost its fenders? I don't know seats that well to say what brand was on there before and is on that bike now. But many old photos exist pre- and post-restoration.

What brand seat is on Earl's fenderless photo (p.74)?

And where is Earl?

[Paquette]

As I am sure you know, the early bikes in the archives were collected many years after the fact, they "came home" so to speak. With that in mind, the seats on the bikes may not be the factory original. As a matter of fact, I found that many of the bikes in the collection had seats that were not correct for the year and model. The seat on page 74 of your book is a Troxel. Most of the early saddles had a simular shape to the cover so the key is the front/rear springs. On Persons and Mesinger saddles , the spring setup was flat, Troxel had the more angular shape. Troxels are correct for most early H-D bikes with Persons thrown in from time to time and by 1913, Troxel, Persons, and Mesinger were all offered by H-D.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Paquette
As I am sure you know, the early bikes in the archives were collected many years after the fact, they "came home" so to speak. With that in mind, the seats on the bikes may not be the factory original. As a matter of fact, I found that many of the bikes in the collection had seats that were not correct for the year and model. The seat on page 74 of your book is a Troxel. Most of the early saddles had a simular shape to the cover so the key is the front/rear springs. On Persons and Mesinger saddles , the spring setup was flat, Troxel had the more angular shape. Troxels are correct for most early H-D bikes with Persons thrown in from time to time and by 1913, Troxel, Persons, and Mesinger were all offered by H-D.

Sounds like you've done the homework.

Since the p.74 photo is the oldest known Harley-Davidson photograph to date then Troxel is correct for early 1905. That's as far back as I can document things.

The tiny bit earlier Line Drawing shows a dinky little seat, but that is just a drawing, albeit on what appears to be a racer.

[Paquette]

Yes Herb I have been doing homework for about 6 years on saddles and saddlebags, which to me is a very intresting subject and my controbution to the hobby for all you "motorheads" ( all respect intended!!!) All the early seats for every Motorcycle manufacturer were bicycle seats. About 1902--03 you start to see patent applications for seats for " bicycles or motor bikes" or "motorized cycles". Now let us think back, Bicycle production continued as the production of motorcycles, by all manufacturers blossomed ( your account is more than 2 dozen by 1910 or so ). It only stands to reason that demand exceeded supply and that H-D probably used seats from any manufacturer that they could get. Most of this info, like documentation for the 1903 model is my speculation based on the evidence that I have. For later years I can be more definitive. And I do use footnotes!!

[c.o.]

Hat's off to you guys!! It's obvious that a lot of work has gone into your findings. It's a great read and I look forward to more insight....the truth is out there somewhere......

[33vld]

1903 Rumor

Hi Herb, your right. Perry E. Mack died on January 26, 1952 at 6:00a.m. in Milwaukee. I too have been in contact with Mr. Sucher over the years. I tried to find out if he had any transcrips
of his interview with Perry with no luck. Mr. Sucher was not in the best of health when I talked with him. I hope he is much better.

One thing that never seems to come up is who actually drew the blueprints to make that 1904 motor. Who made the cylinder and crankcases? Where were they cast? There are different theories and the only way to know for sure is to look at the original blueprints. That has proved to be difficult. The reason this occupies my thoughts is that I located an article from the March 7th, 1912 Motorcycle Illustrated magazine that said "His(Perry's) first motorcycle engine was put in a regular road frame and tried out on the old Garfield park cement track at Chicago in 1905." We know Perry was riding a Harley-Davdison motorcycle that day. Did Perry design that first Harley-Davidson production motor? I have tried in vain for years to locate a photograph from that race with no luck. We know Perry was an inventor, machinist, designer, draftsman and engineer and was in Milwaukee in 1904 living very near Walter Davdison and Bill Harley. According to his obituary he worked for Harley-Davdison Motor Co. and the only time that he could have worked there was in 1904 or 1905 and part of 1906. And we know for a fact that Perry rode and raced Harley-Davidson motorcycles because you found a photograph of Perry standing next to one in 1905.

While I have your attention I would publicly like to thank you Herb for your help and support over the years. You were the first person to help me in my research some 10 years ago.

And one last thing. In that 1912 Motorcycle Illustrated article they said that Perry's engine was put in "a regular road frame." Now what does that mean? Does it mean they used a frame already in production like you believe? Was it the Merkel frame? Or did they just copy the Merkel frame? Or was the whole article just a advertising gimmick? As you well know anything that was written after 1910 in the motorcycle press is questionable.

Dick Werner

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 1903 Rumor

No problem Dick; you've helped me too. Perry Mack interests me very much. As does his fabulous early OHV engine. Basically the Knucklehead invented by 1913; at least an early Sportster equivalent.

Your last sentence says it all: "...anything that was written after 1910 in the motorcycle press is questionable."

Ain't that the truth? Those questions you raise from those old articles is another can of worms. It remains a valid question whether Perry helped teach Harley and Davidson or he learned from them. I tend to think the latter. Except for that 1912 claim, I haven't seen any evidence of a Perry Mack engine until it pops out of nowhere in 1910 as the Waverley promoted by Crolius and Sporleder.

Unless of course Mack also did the Milwaukee Comet motor. But that remains another nagging question without an answer, doesn't it?

And where the heck did that name Waverley come from?

That reminds me. Marty told me that there is a Waverley Beach near Appleton. I'm not sure how it's spelled, but did any of the early Waverley guys come from Appleton?

It's a long shot, but you never know!

I'm also hoping some kind of blueprint from 1903/1904 turns up showing the big 25 ci engine or other parts of the motorcycle. But my hunch is that William S. Harley's name will be on it just like it's on the July 1901 drawing. As to who made the castings, etc. There were a lot of foundries around back then. If Arty made those first patterns as legend has it, there would have been little problem finding some place to cast them if that's what you mean. And like I said in the book, maybe older brother Bill had the guys down at the railshops cast those first parts up. I'm pretty sure they "borrowed" stuff from the railshops. That was Wm. H. Davidson's suspicion too. And he was talking about his own father!

Any number of guys could have told us the whole story: Evinrude, Meyer, Harley, the Davidsons, Mack, even the Becker brothers. Other guys from the neighborhood who watched them roll the motor-bicycle out in 1903 and then roll the improved model out in 1904. And when motorcycles really starting out in 1905 and 1906, etc. Or if some reporter had visited the woodshed and written a little story about them in 1904 or 1905. But that hasn't turned up either and I've looked for it too.

You wouldn't think stuff this recent and close to home would be this hard to figure out. Sadly, however, nobody cared enough to write anything down or to preserve anything from the early days. The historical societies took no interest in our early automotive or motorcycle history and yet look how much that stuff has affected the modern age.

But keep digging. More is gonna turn up.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by c.o.
Hat's off to you guys!! It's obvious that a lot of work has gone into your findings. It's a great read and I look forward to more insight....the truth is out there somewhere......

What I'd like to really know is what happened to that first Harley-Davidson motorcycle. What became of it after 1916?

[darrylri]

Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by HarleyCreation
And where the heck did that name Waverley come from?

That reminds me. Marty told me that there is a Waverley Beach near Appleton. I'm not sure how it's spelled, but did any of the early Waverley guys come from Appleton?

It's a long shot, but you never know!

I just had a look at Microsoft Streets. There's a Waverly Beach that is a couple miles due south of Appleton, WI, and just east of Menasha, WI, on Lake Winnebago. To find it, follow US-10 south where it doglegs off of the WI-441 freeway.

[Earl]

Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by HarleyCreation



Earl should be showing up any second now. He's like a bloodhound on the trail...

Hi Guys.......

Sorry I haven't been around the internet too much lately.....

I was hot on the trail of an early motor. As it was described to me, it was similiar in some ways to other known brands, but in many ways, it sounded different. I had to see it. Feel it. Measure it.

Finally tracked it down......Very unique. Similiar to another known brand, but distinctly different.

What is it?.......The jury is still out. I didn't take any pictures, so I have nothing to post here. Will continue to research it. May go back for additional measuring.

What are the possibilities that it is THE missing link to early Harley motors development? My answer: Slim to none.

What is the possibility that such a missing link motor or information still exists to be found today? My answer: Not sure, but enough of a possibility exists to keep me "out there", searching for evidence and clues.........

[33vld]

1903 Rumor

Thanks for looking up the Waverly Beach info Darryl. Another lead to follow up. I have a few more to follow up now but I'm afraid most will be dead ends. But you never know till you look.

I know where you are coming from Herb when you say you believe William Harley drew the blueprints for the 25ci motor. At
this point in time we really don't have any proof whatsoever that
he didn't. Or that he did! That is whats so frustrating. The lack of early blueprints and drawings for the 1904 or 1905 motorcycle. What happened to them?

And the Comet motor. If ever there was a clone of the Harley-Davdison motor it was the Comet motor in 1908. And just like early Harley records, there is nothing left of the original Comet Motor Company records that I have found. The original garage where the Comet Motorcycle was put together is long gone but the house is still there. SE Corner of 34th St. and Galena St. Just down the street from HD at 35th And Juneau Ave. The building of the Comet Motor Mfg. Co., which it was called in 1913, at the NE corner of 29th and Lisbon Ave. is still there too. They were a dealer for the Jefferson Motorcycle in 1913. It is now a Washer and Dryer repair business. It looks almost unchanged from the way it did in 1913. But unfortunately it is not. I was lucky enough this summer to find an original 1913 photograph of the building with a motorcycle parked out front so there is still hope we might find other information discarded long ago.

It would be so easy if a long lost file was uncovered in the basement on Juneau Ave. and all the missing blueprints and photographs would fall out onto the floor. Now wouldn't that be something.

[33vld]

1903 Rumor

Hi Earl, while I was writing my last post you must have submitted yours. Good to hear from you again. Now what is this about a missing link motor? You have my attention. After meeting you last summer and looking at your previous research I eagerly look forward to what you have uncovered. Good for you.

Dick

[HarleyCreation]

Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by rww

It would be so easy if a long lost file was uncovered in the basement on Juneau Ave. and all the missing blueprints and photographs would fall out onto the floor. Now wouldn't that be something.

You had to bring that up didn't you?

An old guy did tell me several years ago that when AMF took over they cleaned out a "sub-basement" at Juneau Avenue and threw out tons of old records going back to "1910."

But he didn't examine it all to date it. Who knows what they threw away at that time? Stuff that for some reason had been saved for all those many many years........

OTOH, other guys have told me how even when thrown away stuff was taken out of dumpsters on the sly. So even some of that lost treasure may have survived, although probably very little, and maybe not the best stuff. But there's still plenty out there. You can bet on it. I heard that Bill Harley's college diploma was found in the attic of an old house. Also a postcard of the woodshed with a cow named Daisy in it also found in an old house near the factory. Now it's in a famous guy's personal collection so I heard and will probably never see the light of day again. Who knows which bike (if any) is in that postcard image? I'd sure like to find out!

There was so darn much theft around H-D that sometimes the guys were told to smash priceless experimental bikes with sledgehammers before the junkman hauled them away. Other times guys were sent along with obsolete parts to see they were landfilled properly. I heard that the obsolete JD stuff was buried at the West Bend landfill.

Any minute now somebody will bring up the tale of a "Hidden Room" at Harley-Davidson.

PS: Hi Earl!

[HarleyCreation]

Re: Re: 1903 Rumor

Originally posted by HarleyCreation

Any minute now somebody will bring up the tale of a "Hidden Room" at Harley-Davidson.
[/B]

Forget it.

You know there ain't no such thing!