1903 Rumor

[Baytown]

Thanks mate.
I look forward to purchasing a copy.

Best wishes.

Ken.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Baytown
Thanks mate.
I look forward to purchasing a copy.

Best wishes.

Ken.

Baytown: The publisher thought that your best bet is to try Amazon.com as the easiest place to start.

And if that doesn't work for some reason, they will contact the Chicago sales center directly for another approach.

Can you give Amazon.com a try?

Thanks for the interest. I think you'll like the info in the book!

[Baytown]

Thanks for the reply.
No worries.
I'll get on to Amazon.
No distributor in Australia? Seems you would be missing quite a few sales from Oz and EnZed, as Australia has the highest proportion of HD riders per capita in the world apparently. (Lots of people who drag their knuckles behind them down here )

Best wishes.

Ken.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Baytown
Thanks for the reply.
No worries.
I'll get on to Amazon.
No distributor in Australia? Seems you would be missing quite a few sales from Oz and EnZed, as Australia has the highest proportion of HD riders per capita in the world apparently. (Lots of people who drag their knuckles behind them down here )

Best wishes.

Ken.

The publisher is indeed missing a good bet by not having an Oz distributor, but they turned out to be poor in many respects and this is just one of them.

H-D does have a long relationship down under. Goes back at least to the 1920s, maybe teens.

In any case I hope you can obtain a copy of the Harley Creation book and that you enjoy it. If you find fault or mistakes please let us know.

[Baytown]

Thanks for the info. I purchased a copy from Amazon. Postage was only $12 US, so all up $27.70 US, which I'm happy with.
Yep, our local HD shop is the oldest continued dealership in Oz. Orm Snell and Co. Townsville, Nth Queensland. Goes back to the 20s.
I think the Aussie distributor (? Morgan and Whacker) is HD's oldest continuous distributor. I know we have some claim to fame along those lines anyway.

Best wishes mate.

Ken.

[ArchiveMoto]

Well now, 10 years later I wonder if we can blow the dust off of this one. Inspired by what looks like a very liberal interpretation if not mostly fictionalized Discovery miniseries of those first days of the Motor Co. I figured it would be great if we could revisit this thread, possibly shed some light on any new discoveries since you gentlemen last spoke a decade ago! Has there been any more information uncovered about Perry Mack's role in the formative days of Harley Davidson? What of the Henry Meyer claim being that he purchased a model in 1903 from Bill and Arthur as touted by the companies own website? Has there been any substantial evidence uncovered for the existence of actual motorcycle production in 1903, or is the Sept 8 1904 article in the Milwaukee Journal featuring the photo of Mack and a 25ci machine still the first published mention? Do we know anymore about the tooling or casting process, the people who assisted the acclaimed founding fathers, the fathers' role, ect.? It seems as though the company has fully embraced and committed to the 1903 origin story since this discussion ended, I was just curious to know if there has been any substantial findings to support the claim since or if they are just perpetuating murky legends that began over one hundred years ago? A long shot to revive such an old thread but I figured Id give it a go.

Chris

[pem]

Hi Chris, I didn't want to respond to your thread until I saw the new Harley & The Davidson's story. No new information that I could see. I don't quite know what to
say about the movie. Talk about taking liberty with history. And who the hell is Eddy?

If you want an update to this thread just read Herb Wagner's latest story about C.H. Lange in the last club magazine. He will have more updates in the new magazine which should be in our mailboxes today.

My expertise is with Perry E. Mack. I talked to Perry's son William last fall and he was failing fast. I wanted to do one last interview but I am to late. I hope he is doing better.

Now as to Perry. I have been researching him now for close to 25 years. There is no question here was there in 1905 with the boys. He is the first person ever to be photographed with a Harley-Davidson motorcycle in 1905 and the second person ever to have won a race and a trophy while riding a Harley-Davidson motorcycle.
It is just a fact. He most likely was there in 1904 also. When the Briggs & Stratton Corp. released their Briggs & Stratton Motor Wheel they had numerous press
releases in 1919. In one they had a photograph of Perry E. Mack and an article where they described him as the "Chief Engineer of the Motor Wheel Division". This is from the the July 31, 1919 Motorcycle and Bicycle Illustrated magazine. They go on to say in the article "He will have entire charge of all experimental and development work in the Briggs & Stratton Motor Wheel Division. Mr. Mack has given the better part of the last 15 years to the study of gasoline motor construction. He is considered an authority on this class of motor, and the public may safely accept his assertion that he has developed the present motor wheel to a point of perfect efficiency". 1919 minus 15 years experience equals 1904. First year that HD had a full size prototype motorcycle. I noticed in the Harley & the Davidson's movie that they specifically said "prototype" when talking about their first full size motorcycle. They seemed to make a point of it.

I am 33vld in this thread. I don't know how or why that is as I've been pem as long as I can remember. Most people don't know that Perry was Chief Engineer at Brigss and Stratton Corp. in their engine division for 30 years. He is responsible for all of B&S's early motors plus many more inventions through the years. He had over 20 inventions issued to him while at B&S which he then assigned to B&S for next to nothing. Can you imagine the amount of money B&S has made off of Perry's inventions over the years. He quietly retired in 1949. Briggs & Stratton said they never heard of him. He is treated by Briggs & Stratton just like Harley-Davidson has treated him. Not at all! To acknowledge Perry's contributions they both would have to change their histories. You would think that HD would have a huge version of the photograph in their museum that Herb Wagner found in that 1905 Milwaukee Journal newspaper where they show Perry and his HD. Or that B&S would have a display of the many motors that Perry designed for them and a list of his patents.

Most people don't know either that his Mack Motor which was released in 1913 was used in many cyclecars in 1913 and 1914. People just remember his Waverley motor that was used in his P.E.M. motorcycle and the Jefferson motorcycle. They are completely different motors. Or that he most likely had a very large influence on the Smith Motor Wheel. He started at A. O. smith in late 1913/early 1914 when A. O. Smith Co. released their version of the motor wheel.

One of the many mysteries surrounding all this is why Perry never shared more info with with his son William as to his time at HD. I have Perry's personal diary which he kept from 1932 until his death in 1952. He talked about his cars, Packard's were his favorite, about his family and the weather and his many trips all over Wisconsin
but never mentioned anything about his work. I asked William about this and he doesn't know why either except to say that his father was very reticent and was not a bragger.

later

[exeric]

I've read about Perry E. Mack and I know he is one of the true pioneers of the early motor era. When you describe the oversights by historians, and the companies that benefitted from his brilliance, it makes your blood boil. All to often it's the legends, and not the facts that become history. Thanks to historians like yourself, Dick, and Herbert Wagner for digging into obscure archives, and researching (at your own expense) to bring these lost facts to light.

[ArchiveMoto]

Great info PEM thanks for jumping back onto this old thread, you have added yet another layer to Mack's story that I was unaware of. I have been quite intrigued with Mack's role in the development of the early HD, and if he fit in more as a mentor to the young Harley.

As for the new miniseries, the word "liberties" just doesn't quite seem to capture the spirit of the producers commitment to historical fact, I'd say fabrications gets a bit closer, HA! As for Eddie, the character is supposed to be Eddie Hasha which just baffled me when I realized. Set aside that little Eddie was from Texas and had no documented relationship with the founding Harley Davidson other than a brief dealership in Dallas and a ride against Robert Stubbs when he first began racing, the fact that he would have been at best 9 years old during the formative/prototype years at HD as depicted in the first episode just goes to show the depths of fiction this "documentary" has committed to. I am thankful for the series however as I have spent most of my time researching the early days of Indian and it has prompted me to dig in deeper to the fascinating and mysterious origin story of HD and stumble upon this excellent thread.

[pem]

Thanks Eric and Chris. When I said "liberties" I was just being nice. Now that I have had time to think about it I believe it could hurt our motorcycle history in
this country for a long time. It is a complete fantasy based a few facts. I'm afraid that some people will believe every word. I hope not. All the drinking and fighting
was just ridiculous. I was going to watch last nights episode but we had 6 inches of rain since last night and I had no satellite reception. I'm afraid the next episode will will only be worse. It's the Life magazine cover all over again except a lot more people have seen it.

later

[HarleyCreation]

Well now, 10 years later I wonder if we can blow the dust off of this one. Inspired by what looks like a very liberal interpretation if not mostly fictionalized Discovery miniseries of those first days of the Motor Co. I figured it would be great if we could revisit this thread, possibly shed some light on any new discoveries since you gentlemen last spoke a decade ago! Has there been any more information uncovered about Perry Mack's role in the formative days of Harley Davidson? What of the Henry Meyer claim being that he purchased a model in 1903 from Bill and Arthur as touted by the companies own website? Has there been any substantial evidence uncovered for the existence of actual motorcycle production in 1903, or is the Sept 8 1904 article in the Milwaukee Journal featuring the photo of Mack and a 25ci machine still the first published mention? Do we know anymore about the tooling or casting process, the people who assisted the acclaimed founding fathers, the fathers' role, ect.? It seems as though the company has fully embraced and committed to the 1903 origin story since this discussion ended, I was just curious to know if there has been any substantial findings to support the claim since or if they are just perpetuating murky legends that began over one hundred years ago? A long shot to revive such an old thread but I figured Id give it a go.

Chris

In a sidebar article "Origin Stories: What did Harley-Davidson build in 1903, 1904, and 1905?" (July/Aug issue), I updated the best current understanding we have of that question. One significant change is that TWO H-Ds were at the Sept. 9, 1904 races at Milwaukee and not just one as previously assumed. Dick Werner brought that to light.

As to Perry Mack, a guy who knew him way back in the 1930s called him "a wise old owl." That could be a great title for a story in the club mag. Something like: "A Wise Old Owl, Perry E. Mack and the Story of the Waverley/PEM/Jefferson Motorcycle." Like pem/DW, I've been collecting information on that subject for many years. That was a fabulous line of machines with Perry's overhead-valve engine & interesting Harley-Davidson & Milwaukee connections.

[fillibuster]

I enjoyed the 2nd episode of the series as a work of fiction loosely adapted to some real facts that were convenient and made their story more palatable (for those who prefer fiction).
According to Sucher's account in the Iron Redskin, Eddie Hasha was killed in a dramatic crash on a board track, plus another rider, plus 6 young males watching from the guard rail. The wise movie masters leveraged what they could to give things some authenticity, and it is to our disappointment that real history wasn't good enough for them. Too much challenge, I figure.
Funny how those camel-backs competed against V-twins too.
For me, the movie was a let-down, like watching The Most Dangerous Catch, where they inject soap drama into the crew instead of just showing me the damned fish. ... or like the Pickers, I don't care about Frankie or Mike, just show me the damned motorcycle!

My favorite histories are the technological developments, the transition into the V-twin, early porting practices, overhead valve,
But these secrets seem to be after-the-race analyses, and I can see how they would be difficult to report on as specific to a date or person.
Herb Wagner, I can't believe I haven't owned your book for 12 years, and still don't. Maybe I'm just uh Indian guy.

[HarleyCreation]

Hey, there's some Indians in those books! But you gotta page past lots of Harleys. Indian was the dominent make that Harley always judged its progress by--at least until 1936 and the 61 OHV.

Your analysis of the Discovery series is spot on. It's a conglomeration of fictional and real events adapted to the standard Hollywood formula. Some care was taken to make the more technical dialogue sound plausible. I haven't seen the entire thing yet. Curious.