Insurance on bikes borrowed overseas

[BoschZEV]

A problem I'm trying to solve for myself, thus far without success, also affects some fraction of AMCA members. The specific problem I have at the moment is getting insurance coverage for using a borrowed bike in Ireland. The more general problem is getting such coverage in other countries. I realize this only affects a small fraction of members, but the AMCA site shows the club has grown to have chapters in Australia, Canada, England, and Italy so far, and any U.S. member traveling to an overseas club event is likely to want to borrow a bike. For that, they'll need insurance.

The way insurance is handled in the U.S. is not common in other countries. The policy I have on my modern bikes and the other one I have on my old bikes automatically covers people who borrow them. Such is not the case in the EU. There are many insurance options for someone who is an EU citizen living in the EU country where the bike that is owned and registered in their name is housed and where they will ride it. Unfortunately, as any of those factors is changed the options decrease very fast. So far I have yet to find an insurance option for a non-EU resident to use a borrowed bike.

Suggestions like "buy" the bike and "sell" it back so you are the "owner," or pretend you are a resident, etc. don't work. The only reason to have insurance is for the unthinkable, and if that happens you will need the insurance and so don't want there to be good cause for them to decline the claim. Also, having spent a lot of time on this, suggestions like "you might try..." aren't helpful because chances are very good that I've already tried the suggested company and/or solution.

I realize overseas insurance on borrowed bikes affects few members so club officers wouldn't want to spend their own time looking into it. However, someone "official" could urge Haggerty (who doesn't offer such insurance) to get their people on it and find partner insurance companies in countries where AMCA has chapters. Haggerty should have the contacts within the insurance industry to find a solution to this problem and might do so if the AMCA exercised its mighty clout by asking them to do so.

[indian301]

When I rode a borrowed 1959 Norton through 11 countries in Europe, the owner of the motorcycle organized insurance and breakdown service for me through his insurance provider. I never had any issues, but I did use the breakdown service one time.

Dave

[BoschZEV]

the owner of the motorcycle organized insurance and breakdown service for me through his insurance provider.

How long ago was that? The problem I'm facing is this is how it worked with my friend and me for the past 15 years but the provider no longer will add people to their policy, and other providers he has contacted say the same thing.

[indian301]

My trip was in 2003, so as you have stated they apparently have changed their policies.

Dave

[pete reeves]

I also have had problems with insurance but with me its the other way round . I'm English and need to insure my own bike in the US for the cannonball run.

I live in the UK and have my bikes insured with the UK branch of Hagerty. They tell me that I can add a non UK resident to my insurance policy with them, as a named driver/rider providing they have a good driving history. My policy covers me and would cover any named driver to drive my bike in Europe and some other country's.

Hagerty also operate in northern Ireland but not in Southern Ireland so this may not help you.
My advice would be to keep trying different insurance company's because they might not all have the same policy. Your friend might have to sign up with a different insurance company.
Pete Reeves #860

[BoschZEV]

My advice would be to keep trying different insurance company's because they might not all have the same policy. Your friend might have to sign up with a different insurance company.

My friend succeeded in finding a company that will be insuring me for a lot of money, so my problem for that one country, and for this year, is taken care of. Unfortunately, the underlying problem is while there are many agencies (e.g. Haggerty) there are only a few companies that actually underwrite the insurance and they set the rules. That is, agencies make their profits by packaging insurance in various ways to attract customers, but they have to get those policies underwritten by one of the relatively few insurance conglomerates licensed to operate according to the regulations of a given country. So, ten different agencies could be contacted but if they all deal with the same underwriter the answer will be the same.

It's because the rules are aren't transparent to customers that it would be very useful for some fraction of the members if the AMCA could get a company like Haggerty to find partner companies that offer "borrower" insurance in countries where AMCA has chapters.

[TechNoir]

Hello BoschZEV, I am glad that you have sorted out your immediate problem.

Something that is quite often offered as part of the Insurance package is insurance that covers for both the UK (where I live) and also riding in the European Union for vacations and such like. Therefore if you were put on such a policy as a named rider then you could get cover for all 28 (27 in 2 years time) countries in the EU. I would imagine that similar deals are offered by insurers in most EU countries because it is very common for people to travel by road from one EU country to another.

John

[TechNoir]

BoschZEV, I had another thought. Have you spoken to Pete Young (of Occhio Lungo) about this?

To my knowledge (from Pete's posting on the web) he has ridden in the UK, Southern Ireland and Holland on borrowed bikes in the last 2 or 3 years so he must have had the same questions about insurance for an American abroad.

John

[AFJ]

My friend succeeded in finding a company that will be insuring me for a lot of money, so my problem for that one country, and for this year, is taken care of. Unfortunately, the underlying problem is while there are many agencies (e.g. Haggerty) there are only a few companies that actually underwrite the insurance and they set the rules. That is, agencies make their profits by packaging insurance in various ways to attract customers, but they have to get those policies underwritten by one of the relatively few insurance conglomerates licensed to operate according to the regulations of a given country. So, ten different agencies could be contacted but if they all deal with the same underwriter the answer will be the same.

It's because the rules are aren't transparent to customers that it would be very useful for some fraction of the members if the AMCA could get a company like Haggerty to find partner companies that offer "borrower" insurance in countries where AMCA has chapters.

Some 8 years ago I went through a similar exercise when I was offered the use of an old motorcycle to ride to and from a rally in England. The owner's insurance company asked for and received information on my driver's licence, driving record, insurance and claims history. The insurer in England agreed to my riding the bike and I had a most enjoyable 200 miles of riding on some very interesting roads.
I have always felt that the approval was as a result of the motorcycle insurance company I was (and still am) with here in Ontario, Canada was a company whose parent company is one of the largest English insurance companies underwriting motorcycles and the motorcycle involved was the same make but only slightly different model to the one which I was insured on by their Canadian company and which I had 37 years of riding experience on. The bike was a '39 Brough Superior SS100.
AFJ

[BoschZEV]

...insurance that covers for both the UK (where I live) and also riding in the European Union

John,

Brexit aside, the EU isn't as uniform as some might think. Each country has its own insurance regulations for its own citizens. It's when one of those people drives to another EU country that the EU steps in with regulations that provide uniform "Green Card" insurance coverage that is good in all other countries except the originating country. In your case your UK insurance provides you with some level of coverage that meets the UK's requirements within the country, and if you pay your provider for a Green Card it allows you to travel outside the UK with the EU level of coverage.

In the case of my "Irish problem," where my friend and his bikes live, in previous years I was added as a named rider and all was fine. The problem was things changed this year such that nearly no company doing business in Ireland now allows someone to be added as a named rider. When my friend discovered this last week I then spent the next several days trying to get insurance under my own name but hit a brick wall because 1) I'm not a resident of Ireland, and 2) I don't own the motorcycle. When my friend returned from a short trip and started looking into this further he quickly learned he couldn't get insurance from a UK company because he's not a resident of the UK and, even if that weren't a problem, the Green Card insurance would not have been valid in the country in which he is a resident, i.e. in Ireland. Luckily, he found an Irish company that will cover me this year (although for a lot of money). There's no predicting what it will be like next year.

The situation with borrowed/loaned bikes varies significantly from country to country. I was recently in Australia and spent a wonderful day riding a borrowed Gold Star for ~200 miles. There, like the U.S., the insurance stays with the bike whereas in Ireland (and the UK?) the insurance basically is tied to the policyholder. I've been told the situation in Holland is roughly like that of the U.S., making borrowing bikes there easier.

Also, in the U.S., if someone gets into an accident while driving a borrowed car and it turns out that car has no insurance on it, the driver's own policy steps in to provide the coverage.(*) Because of our experience with the way insurance works in the U.S. I expect not everyone who borrows a bike overseas thinks about the issue. Further, the odds of a mature, experienced rider on a classic bike getting into an accident aren't large. At least, that's what we mature, experienced riders all tell ourselves. So, I suspect some people who do think about the insurance issue, and don't find an easy solution to it, just cross their fingers and ride.


(*)Twenty years ago my daughter was stopped behind a car at a red light when a few moments later she was hit from behind by a driver who must have been daydreaming, and pushed into the car in front of her. By the time I got there a policeman was on the scene and names and insurance information had been exchanged by the three drivers. I asked the cop how many times are three drivers involved in an accident and all three of them have insurance? He smiled and said it never happens. Anyway, at least in my part of the U.S. it's not uncommon for people to drive without insurance even though it is illegal.

[BoschZEV]

Some 8 years ago I went through a similar exercise when I was offered the use of an old motorcycle to ride to and from a rally in England. The owner's insurance company asked for and received information on my driver's licence, driving record, insurance and claims history.

I strongly suspect no human was involved in the decision to provide you with insurance. Your license allowed the computer to determine you had no convictions for a disqualifying offense (e.g. driving while drunk), and your insurance claims history showed that, even if you had made claims in the past, they were lower than the cutoff in the computer algorithm.

Had the computer rejected you for a technicality you could easily explain as irrelevant, I doubt you would have been able to speak to any human who had the authority, or initiative, to override the decision. Even though such a person would know the risk of you making a claim was small, they also would know that the risk to their career at that company was large if you did make a claim. Application denied.

[TechNoir]

Re: Insurance on bikes borrowed overseas

BoschZEV, you are certainly more knowledgeable than me on this subject.

You are right that in the UK the person is insured although the bike can also have some cover depending on what you opt for when taking out the insurance

However your comments did make me have a look at my policy which I renewed at the end of September last year. It does state that me or any named rider is covered for use in Europe and this European cover is underwritten by ACE European Ltd.

In the UK (for the benefit of others reading this, I am sure that you already know this) there are 3 levels of standard insurance cover. The first level is called Third Party Only and is the minimum cover required under UK law. It means that in the event of an accident then the insurance covers for Third Party claims but nothing for you.

The second level is Third Party, Fire & Theft and is the Third Party cover plus it covers the bike for fire or theft.

The Third level of cover is Fully Comprehensive cover. It covers for Third Party claims plus all claims (under the policy terms) for your own bike such as fire, theft accident damage etc. At my grand old age the price difference between minimum cover and maximum cover is nil because the insurer tells me that I am already paying the minimum premium on offer whatever the cover but I have Fully Comprehensive cover.

I guess I am a low risk.

However when taking out the policy the broker asks questions like, will you be carrying a pillion, will anyone else be riding the bike etc and I am certain that I could have asked for cover for any rider with my permission. These riders however would only have had Third party cover even though the policy is Fully Comprehensive for me and any named riders.

One thing that my policy also allows is for me to ride any other bike with the owners permission although the cover is again only third party.

Insurance is obviously a minefield and like you said seems to vary from country to country. Good luck with your quest to sort out cover for your future international trips.

John

[BoschZEV]

Insurance is obviously a minefield and like you said seems to vary from country to country. Good luck with your quest to sort out cover for your future international trips.

I'm overseas a half-dozen times each year, and have ridden motorcycles in eight countries (many more than once), so this issue is of much greater importance to me than it is to most AMCA members. Still, as AMCA grows and adds chapters overseas, it certainly will increase in importance for more people.

It's not always that "only" the insurance is important. I rented a car in Qatar a few months ago complete with insurance. However, I was warned that insurance would cover damage to the car only if there were a police report describing the incident, but that the police simply would not come to the scene of any accident unless there was an injury. Because of this, in most cases the only way to get the accident report that would permit me to leave the country (i.e. not be stopped at Immigration because I would pop up in their records as having a claim against me) would be to spend at least a full day at their motor vehicle department with all the other foreigners caught in the web.

Thankfully, I also was warned there are speed cameras everywhere and the fine is something horrendous (I forget, but it was the better part of $1000). The car didn't have cruise control so even with this warning it was difficult to keep from creeping over the speed limit on the nearly empty flat roads in the wide-open countryside. It's a good thing no place in Doha rents motorcycles because I certainly would have owed $10,000 in fines by the end of that day.

[AFJ]

I strongly suspect no human was involved in the decision to provide you with insurance. Your license allowed the computer to determine you had no convictions for a disqualifying offense (e.g. driving while drunk), and your insurance claims history showed that, even if you had made claims in the past, they were lower than the cutoff in the computer algorithm.

Had the computer rejected you for a technicality you could easily explain as irrelevant, I doubt you would have been able to speak to any human who had the authority, or initiative, to override the decision. Even though such a person would know the risk of you making a claim was small, they also would know that the risk to their career at that company was large if you did make a claim. Application denied.

Actually, over the last 30 years of involvement with the CVMG (Canadian Vintage Motorcycle Group) and periodic dealings with the Ontario government insurance regulators and various insurance companies regarding the rates and conditions of motorcycle insurance, I have found that it is very much still who and what you know rather than the need to "surrender to what the computer says".
While insurance on classic and antique motorcycles in Ontario is not as cheap as in most US states it does include no-fault accident benefits and part of the premium goes to pay the cost of hospitals, doctors, nurses, air ambulance and other medical costs.
Usually, if payouts on motorcycle insurance are 75% of premiums or less insurers are happy. If more than that it indicates that they need to increase premiums. I one 5 year period when the CVMG was working in co-operation with an insurance company to insure our members and their old motorcycles, the payouts required to service their policies was just 9% of premiums.
Insurance companies usually "make their money" on the investment of the large amounts of premiums they garner each year. With the present low interest rates their return on conventional secure investments are, of course, lower than they would like. Many insurance companies shy away from insuring motorcycles simply because they have no staff with any experience with the underwriting of this type of business. The few in the industry who have developed their knowledge of motorcycling and the requirements have generally become quite wealthy.
AFJ