P4gas warning

[T. Cotten]

Hmmmn...my grasstrimmer's fuel line swelled and split before I could get
half the yard done...an omen?

Today a local with a seasoned warhorse chubble walks in with something that
looked like fresh pig's liver in his hands:
(see attachment)

My apologies if that grossed anyone out, or made them start the charcoal.

I have preached on several forums against other kinds of sealer, preferring the red ones like RedCote, Randolph's, or whatever the radiator shops used that survived P4gas. Until now.

At risk of being a stormcrow, those of you in the USA (at least) with ANY
tank sealers installed,...Beware, the times are a changin.

...Cotten

[c.o.]

Holy jumpin' pig livers batman! That's awful! Thanks for the heads up Cotten!

[AdminGuy]

Thanks for heads up. Flame away my friend.
Is that an alcohol additive in p4?

Wow! Is your alley ever clean looking! Nice hood.
ummmm..... steak for tomorrow.

[T. Cotten]

It is certainly not ethanol, as we have had blends for years without any softening or destruction of the red varnish-like sealers professionally installed by radiator shops. And ethanol won't eat powdercoating, but our gas will!

A couple of springtimes ago, I inquired of the qwickymart chain with the most digestive of swill, Casey's General Stores of Ankeney IA, just what additives might be the problem. The corporate office answer over the phone was that there was only one additive, which they called "IVD" for Intake Valve Deposit, and that it was "federally mandated".
Obviously it was an elusive answer.

Now, even the quality brands (Shell and Phillips hereabouts) are hot.

I inquired of the Illinois EPA as to additives, and they only test for octane!
Formulations are changed with the season, and something really nasty is used for warm weather. Older autos run rough on the Casey's pee, and it turns rancid in storage in just a couple of months.

It is ironic that so many enthusiasts worry so much about their choice of motor oil, but blindly burn the worst of fuel!

[INLINE4NUT]

LOUIE,
Thanks for the heads up! And I hope the blob doesnt infect you!!

[AFJ]

If you add some water to a sample of this gasoline does the apparent volume of gasoline become less?

If so then the additive is probably an alcohol and may be methanol. Methanol is more likely to affect plastic fuel tanks and lines and the polyester resin type of fuel tank liners. It is probably anything up to 10% of the volume of a gallon of low test unleaded gasoline.

But in order to keep methanol in solution with the paraffinic components of normal gasoline, it is common to add a few percent of acetone.

Acetone is pretty hard on plastics, rubber fuel lines, paints, fibreglas resins and some tank liners.

AFJ

[INLINE4NUT]

AFJ,
Not to mention HUMANS!!!

[T. Cotten]

If the digestive fuel problem was not so widespread, I would suspect illegal dumping of hazmat into fuel storage.

Not that it is not still a concern!
Many solvents used in the printing and other industries cost anywhere from $300 to $1500 (last time I heard) a barrel to have disposed.
Many an unscrupulous terminal or quickymart operator would be more than happy to make it disappear for a fraction of that, in cash of course, in the middle of the night.

Again I express my surprise that my state's EPA doesn't even consider testing for contaminants.






PS: Thank Louie for me too. He must be a great guy.

[AFJ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by T. Cotten
[B]If the digestive fuel problem was not so widespread, I would suspect illegal dumping of hazmat into fuel storage.

Not that it is not still a concern!
Many solvents used in the printing and other industries cost anywhere from $300 to $1500 (last time I heard) a barrel to have disposed.
Many an unscrupulous terminal or quickymart operator would be more than happy to make it disappear for a fraction of that, in cash of course, in the middle of the night.

Again I express my surprise that my state's EPA doesn't even consider testing for contaminants.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That surprises me. For 20 years or more the Ontario Ministry of the Environment and the Ministry of Revenue have had an active operation to keep waste solvents and un-taxed solvents and chemicals out of the automotive fuel market.

IR scan analysis will easily pick up the various components of an unknown "gasoline" and identify their origin.

Usual scams:

- # 2 stove oil run through activated charcoal to remove the dye then sold as diesel fuel or mixed with untaxed "paint thinners" (high in toluene) to be sold as cut-rate gasoline.

- waste solvents from metal cleaning (filtered to remove the solid particles of swarf) and added as a percentage to regular gasoline. Sometimes added as a percentage to the decolourized #2 stove oil and sold as diesel fuel.

- Solvent Naptha purchased as a non-fuel taxed industrial solvent for repackaging and mixed with non-fuel taxed Varsol (paint thinners) then sold as gasoline to independent gas stations who pocket the tax difference.

There are probably dozens of other inventive scams. As the price of gasoline increases it will only encourage widespread fraud.

AFJ

[T. Cotten]

AFJ!

I appreciate the insights, although quite disturbing!

My state legislator's office deserves an alert, although such social responsiblility usually results in getting shot at as a volunteer.

Referring to your first post, I finally dug out some 100 ml volumetric flasks.
You imply that if I fill a 'clean' one with the P4gas, and then dropper in a coupla ml's of DW, mixed it should return the meniscus to the line or less,... if some sort of alcohol is present?

Obviously I shall have to test a pump that is not labeled as an ethanol blend.

Off hand I can't remember any test to distinguish between ethanol and methanol except methanol will blind you before you die.
(And I have other plans for my stainless tubing stock rather than to fill it with diatomaceous earth for a homemade GC.)

If this problem really manifests itself, we will need to tune in the bureaucrats to investigate with authority, rather than juggle the testubes ourselves.
The AMCA has no precedent for 'political' activism, either.

Wait 'til the streetbikes start pukeing, I guess.
Meanwhile, my grasstrimmer is history for want of 3" of gasproof tubing.

[Paps]

Alleged dumping of flamable toxic chemicals into fuel reminds me of a situation here in Ohio. Garages collect spent motor oil from oil changes and turn the colections over to a so called recycling centers. I bring this up because here in my state it is against the law/epa regs for a citizen to burn spent motor oil, even as an igniter for starting a brush clearing fire which by the way is legal if so many feet from etc., etc., etc.. and so on. These so called oil recycling centers sell the spent motor oil and other collected lubes like tranny fluids to large building structures such as hospitals, apartment complexes, schools, and manufacturing facilities who burn oils as fuel for boilers. It is legal for them to burn these fuels! Which of the two when burning put out more smoke and contaminates?? Paps

[T. Cotten]

Paps!
That's just like how I am allowed to use polluting rattlecans by the case, but forbidden by my state licensing to use a spraygun under direct threat of incarceration (eye-to-eye,.. or at least eye-to-badge.)

Back to the thread,
I sense that this problem will prove too widespread to be isolated dumping.

Consider the health implications of the combined vehicle exhausts with whatever these noxious chemicals might be.

Always the optimist,
....Cotten

[Paps]

Cotten......an optimist myself generally, I fear it is more widespread than we realize and the data the general public has access to is limited extensively. A few years down the road and the companies who may be blending health hazards and vehicle parts destroyers will be fined for their actions. A $10,000 fine verses the billions made in profits. An independeant certified lab is the publics only recource. Test samples from severals distributors, record the findings, post the results for all to see, present the evidence to the press, then the authorities. [in that order]. My appologies for stepping off topic. Paps

[AFJ]

Originally posted by T. Cotten
AFJ!

Referring to your first post, I finally dug out some 100 ml volumetric flasks.
You imply that if I fill a 'clean' one with the P4gas, and then dropper in a coupla ml's of DW, mixed it should return the meniscus to the line or less,... if some sort of alcohol is present?

Obviously I shall have to test a pump that is not labeled as an ethanol blend.

Off hand I can't remember any test to distinguish between ethanol and methanol except methanol will blind you before you die.

T. Cotten,

Test works best if you had a graduated cylinder and put in perhaps 100 cc of the suspect fuel, then added 10 cc of water, shook it up to mix and then let settle. If there is any water soluble substance in the fuel it should be absorbed by the alcohol.

Suppose there was 5% alcohol in the fuel and after shaking and settling it went into the water you would see a layer of water/alcohol mix on the bottom of the graduated cylinder (gasoline being less dense than water) which might be about 15 cc in volume, overlain by 95 cc of gasoline.

Telling methanol from ethanol? Methanol boils at 66 degrees C, ethanol not until 78.3 degrees C.

AFJ

[T. Cotten]

So the boiling point of the different alcohols would affect the blended fuel, but how can we use that to detect either, in the presence of a smudgepot of other hydrocarbons?

Let's go straight to public outcry and alert the public servants that are supposed to handle such things anyway.

I wonder what my state legislator would think of the liver pic.