Beware of the new E15 gasoline

[T. Cotten]

BoschZEV!

So if: "... My point is, throwing up your hands and saying it is too complicated is not the thing to do."...
Then you are volunteering?

Congratulations, you got the job!

Your traffic school anecdote reminds me of my Federal service, on of all things,... the "Gasahol" project of the late '70s-early'80s".
When literature searches showed clearly that mixing ethanol with gasoline was futile, the response from my superiors was much like your instructor.

On to "how to make our old bikes work with E15 (or E20, or whatever is available in the future) so we can keep riding them.",.. I can only repeat: the best approach for our vintage machines is to avoid using anything that the P4gas might eat.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

But many of our vehicles are from a time when solid brass and steel parts were used for fuel systems, so ethanol has little effect.

Unfortunately, that is not necessarily true. The American Coalition for Ethanol itself says "Avoid components made from zinc, brass, lead, aluminum or other soft metals. The ethanol fuel may cause leaching from such soft metals..."

Use Stabil or similar additive.

Making a very long story relatively short, I've been conducting a multi-year study of the effects of pure ethanol ("E100"), E10 gasoline, E10 gasoline plus Stabil, and E10 gasoline plus Stabil Marine, using fresh containers that I bought from a heavily-used auto parts store on one of the busiest streets in town and following the manufacturer's instructions for the maximum "extended seasonal storage" dose. The labels on the bottles say the formulations are "to fight the damaging effects of ethanol in gasoline," and the dosage I used is stated to keep the gasoline good for "up to two years."

For one test I filled four glass containers with the above mixtures into each of which I dropped chunks of zinc-based carburetor material (~7.5 grams) and brass jets (~3.5 grams) that I had weighed to +/-2 milligrams on a scale I calibrated with test weights accurate to 30 micrograms. I've been tracking the weights of the specimens for over two years to see if there is any weight loss due to etching by the ethanol and, if there is, if the Stabil helps. As of my latest measurements two years into this test the Stabil had made no measurable difference on the weight loss.

For another test I estimated the total area of vent holes, the main jet, etc. from a carburetor float bowl to air and drilled appropriate holes in the lids of four containers. The point of this experiment is to measure both the evaporation rate and the amount of residue that would be left in a carburetor that had not been drained after the fuel had been allowed to totally evaporate at a rate determined by the holes in the float bowl. In each of these containers I placed small foil cups that I had weighed to +/-2 milligrams which I then filled with the four mixtures (i.e. I filled the cups that were inside the containers with holes, not the containers themselves). The Stabil made no measurable difference in either the evaporation rate (i.e. the time it took for half the fuel to evaporate, 90% to evaporate, etc.) nor on the weight of sticky residue left in each cup after 1 year or 2 years.

As a result of these experiments I do not personally use a "fuel stabilizer" and I drain the gasoline from the float bowl and tank of any motorcycle I won't be using for any period longer than a week.

[sirhrmechanic]

As a result of these experiments I do not personally use a "fuel stabilizer" and I drain the gasoline from the float bowl and tank of any motorcycle I won't be using for any period longer than a week.

I don't disagree that this is the best way to do things... turn off fuel valve and run carbs empty, for example. Good plan. Not always practical, but it probably should fall under the category of 'best practices.'

The leaching, I think, is over-rated at least with brass. It is a very stable metal. Of course, alcohol is also very persistant and I can't say it's good, either.

Of note, one of the things we recommend for car engines that are not doing well with E10 is to put 10 percent diesel in the fuel. It makes a huge difference in lubricity and eliminates any vapor lock problems inherent in some of the cars. I have never done this with bikes, but something to consider. Remember, our machines were made at a time when octane ratings and gas volatility ranked with goat urine. So adding some diesel (or the old standby of Marvel Mystery Oil) does not hurt.

The net of it is that we have been placed in a Brave New World where old cars and old bikes are not appreciated as they do not meet Mr. Gore's definition of all green and stuff. So don't expect anyone to care about our special needs. So if we want to keep riding, we simply need to be creative, cautious with our equipment and come up with ways to keep going despite the tide rolling against us. Fortunately, MC riders tend to have all of the above qualities, so screw the owl-huggers. We will continue to thrive.

Maybe we should remind the druids that old bike and old car enthusiasts were the FIRST recyclers. We were recycling old machines when everyone else wanted a shiny new Prius or CB750.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[BoschZEV]

Remember, our machines were made at a time when octane ratings and gas volatility ranked with goat urine. So adding some diesel (or the old standby of Marvel Mystery Oil) does not hurt.

For many older motorcycles detonation is a real issue so for these machines adding oil or diesel to the gasoline is very bad advice.

we have been placed in a Brave New World... do not meet Mr. Gore's definition of all green and stuff... so screw the owl-huggers...we should remind the druids

Seriously, rants like this have nothing to do with the topic of making old bikes compatible with E15 gasoline. If people want to rant and rave, fine, but I would prefer to deal with things I can help fix.

[sirhrmechanic]

Touche... I speak from an old car, not old bike perspective. So accept the repudiation.

As for Mr. Gore, I will continue to be un-repentant when it comes to druids and knob-gobblers.

Cheers, Sirhr

[fillibuster]

Touche... I speak from an old car, not old bike perspective. So accept the repudiation.

As for Mr. Gore, I will continue to be un-repentant when it comes to druids and knob-gobblers.

Cheers, Sirhr

Gore wasn't that lucky, you must be thinking of someone else(!). He did, however, express zero sympathy for "0ld clunkers" that weren't compatible with modern fuels and emissions standards. "We've got to get these old clunkers off the road!" he said. And it is true that politicians play to the majority masses, hang the rest. Case in point.

[BoschZEV]

As for Mr. Gore, I will continue to be un-repentant when it comes to druids and knob-gobblers.

Again, the AMCA is about old motorcycles. I don't care one way or another about your political opinions. I just respectfully ask on this forum that you write about things directly related to old motorcycles to avoid driving away people who would rather not sift through unrelated opinions.

[sirhrmechanic]

Again, the AMCA is about old motorcycles. I don't care one way or another about your political opinions. I just respectfully ask on this forum that you write about things directly related to old motorcycles to avoid driving away people who would rather not sift through unrelated opinions.

You can ask...

[BoschZEV]

You can ask...

If someone wants to be disruptive on a Forum like this, especially where there's no moderator, there's nothing to stop them. However, I again respectfully ask that you refrain.

[silentgreyfello]

If someone wants to be disruptive on a Forum like this, especially where there's no moderator, there's nothing to stop them. However, I again respectfully ask that you refrain.

Are you suggesting we can't bash the idiot tree-hugging Demos for pushing this crap at us as they try to save the world? :-)

[fillibuster]

If someone wants to be disruptive on a Forum like this, especially where there's no moderator, there's nothing to stop them. However, I again respectfully ask that you refrain.

I apologize for offending you Mr Bosch, but not for offering what I feel IS relative. The motorcycle fraternity has had to work to earn its respect from the high-majority automobile public, and today also, we are a minority trying to survive more than the mechanical evolutions we're subject to. Politics HAVE landed on us, and it doesn't hurt to understand the what-when-how-why, and even the where, that put an end to some pretty cool creations.
Thx for your patience

[BoschZEV]

Are you suggesting we can't bash the idiot tree-hugging Demos for pushing this crap at us as they try to save the world? :-)

If someone wants a technical discussion of how to adapt our old bikes to work with new fuels, they can start a new thread. Sorry, but I'm just not interested continuing this nonsense so I'm done here.

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October 2, 1992 | RUDY ABRAMSON, TIMES STAFF WRITER
Ending a months-long stalemate, President Bush cleared the way Thursday for corn-based ethanol to be mixed with gasoline and used as fuel in the nation's smoggiest cities.
---------

[silentgreyfello]

President Bush

was a RINO

[ricmoran]

If your looking for fuel without ethanol, check out the link and map: https://www.historicvehicle.org/Reso...s/Pure-Gas-Map

In the case of politics being dumped on us who own these old machines, it is best to stand together with organizations (if they will give representation for the effort of standing with them) for a louder voice. Sometimes i wonder however if they act like they are listening are they really?

I am fortunate to be in Hawaii, there are service stations that sell 100% gas without ethanol. I've been thinking about filling a couple of drums with it just to have ease of access, but then remember, gees, if that stuff gets lit up.....

[fillibuster]

quote: "I am fortunate to be in Hawaii, there are service stations that sell 100% gas without ethanol. I've been thinking about filling a couple of drums with it just to have ease of access, but then remember, gees, if that stuff gets lit up..."

and Cotton's got me all phobic about "breakdown", shelf-life, etc. of even that which is called "100%". I want to suggest that we have to know how to work with it.
A trade school in Watertown SD had it's lead educators do experiments with ethanol a few decades ago (and they still work with it). They started with lawn-mower engines. I've used 10% in my Chief many times, and have experienced problems from residuals in the bowl, softening of the rubber hoses between petcocks and carb, and I'm not very fond of tank sealers' vulnerability. Beyond that, I'm not sure that I suffered from high heat, unless it was +95 out there.
So yes, I prefer the 100% in "premium", but I think we're stuck with the adulterated blends. 2-cycle oil, Marvel Mystery oil, octane additives, many antidotes are suggested. But why, why, why can't I have what I want?!! wwaaahhhh!