Dealer stamped cases?

[Chris Haynes]

Here is a letter from The MoCo telling a dealer to stamp numbers into blank cases.

[c.o.]

Well isn't that something.... now do you think it could be possible that if a number was lost that any ol' hardware store number would have done the job? This news could bring a whole new perspective to "number jobs".

[Chris Haynes]

A number job has had the original number removed and a new one put in its place.

[Chuck#1848]

I believe that Cory was referring to the type of number stamp font used

[Hollywood]

I need to carry a copy of this letter on my '39 with dealer replacement cases....

[sirhrmechanic]

I am not all that familiar with AMCA judging, but one of the things I seem to recall hearing was that any alterations to case numbers made a bike ineligible for judging. Again, don't quote me on that... but it popped into my head.

If that is the case, does this letter exonerate bikes with poorly-stamped cases or 'odd numbers?' How does this affect authenticity? Is there a way to 'measure' the number face/boss on a case in order to determine whether the old numbers have been milled off and new ones added?

Of note, a bunch of years ago I was at a shop and asked to help ID an Alpha 8C... something was funky about it. Bought from Christies auction for well into seven figures. Turned out it was a restamp. Saloon chassis cut, shortened and renumbered. Salted w. enough real parts to make it appear authentic enough to fool even the experts. (The seller was unaware, too... and they traced back a couple of owners and could never find out 'who' or 'when' the car was dummied up. And Christies worked to make everything right financially w. the buyer -- everyone was happy in the end, which speaks to their credibility in the auction market.

But it goes to illustrate the 'caveat emptor' nature of buying high-dollar vehicles. There are more than a few stories of Bugatti's and 4.5L Bentley's going into one end of a shop and three emerging at the other end... all with enough 'original' parts to pass even the closest inspection. And "miracle of miracles" two of them will be cars that had been in fires or lost in the war or dismantled in the 30's... but wait, no, they were hidden behind a wall in a castle. Yeah, ok... it does happen. But it better come with some good provenance and pictures.

Anyway... sorry about the rambling. Interested in my original query. Thanks for posting, Chris...

Cheers,

Sirhr

[c.o.]

I believe that Cory was referring to the type of number stamp font used

You interpret well Chuck! That's exactly what I meant.

[Chris Haynes]

I am not all that familiar with AMCA judging, but one of the things I seem to recall hearing was that any alterations to case numbers made a bike ineligible for judging. Again, don't quote me on that... but it popped into my head.

If that is the case, does this letter exonerate bikes with poorly-stamped cases or 'odd numbers?' How does this affect authenticity? Is there a way to 'measure' the number face/boss on a case in order to determine whether the old numbers have been milled off and new ones added?

Of note, a bunch of years ago I was at a shop and asked to help ID an Alpha 8C... something was funky about it. Bought from Christies auction for well into seven figures. Turned out it was a restamp. Saloon chassis cut, shortened and renumbered. Salted w. enough real parts to make it appear authentic enough to fool even the experts. (The seller was unaware, too... and they traced back a couple of owners and could never find out 'who' or 'when' the car was dummied up. And Christies worked to make everything right financially w. the buyer -- everyone was happy in the end, which speaks to their credibility in the auction market.

But it goes to illustrate the 'caveat emptor' nature of buying high-dollar vehicles. There are more than a few stories of Bugatti's and 4.5L Bentley's going into one end of a shop and three emerging at the other end... all with enough 'original' parts to pass even the closest inspection. And "miracle of miracles" two of them will be cars that had been in fires or lost in the war or dismantled in the 30's... but wait, no, they were hidden behind a wall in a castle. Yeah, ok... it does happen. But it better come with some good provenance and pictures.

Anyway... sorry about the rambling. Interested in my original query. Thanks for posting, Chris...

Cheers,

Sirhr

As far as AMCA judging goes a bike is judged to the condition it was in when it left the factory. An unrestored bike may get by with replacement cases but a restored bike must be original. Being as a new bike didn't leave the factory with replacement cases they would not be allowed on a restored machine. Bike with altered numbers will be DQ ed. But they will still be judged. They simply aren't eligible for an award.

[Cass]

It was quite common with Triumphs that under warrenty if the Engine blew. The dealer was sent an unstamped engine & the dealer would stamp it to match the frame number. After many years & ownership the original paper work is usually lost.

Senior Field Judge for British