Harley XA

[panhead_jim]

Spent this afternoon researching the Harley XA. Sounds like Harley did a good job copying the R71, but I couldn't find out why the Army didn't go through with production. Any thoughts?

The Harley-Davidson XA

[sirhrmechanic]

PanJim:

From what I understand, the need for the XA was because the opposed cylinders, both exposed to air flow, worked better in the desert than the V-Twin configuration. Also, the XA was better suited for sidecar use.

With the end of the desert campaigns (Rommel defeated and the Afrika-Corps more or less rounded up and POW...) the need for the XA went away. In every other respect, the WLA was doing just fine. And there was little or no need for sidecar bikes... though pre-war strategists had felt that sidecar machines would play a larger role. The Jeep put an end to that theory.

This is from memory, and some other folks may have some better sources. But I know I have come across these in print in various books.

Hope this helps.

BTW, there was an XA for sale at Rhinebeck. Painted with, I think, a roller. In ugly blue. But I seriously lusted after that bike!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[panhead_jim]

Seems like the Jeep was the main factor in the demise of military motorcycles of all makes. There's an XA floating around Craigslist, but no price is listed. I wonder how much one is worth?

[sirhrmechanic]

XA at Rhinebeck.jpg

The guy at Rhinebeck wanted, I think, $30K. In adequate 'postwar I got this cheap at a surplus sale and pimped it' condition. But the military stuff was all gone. I may be wrong and it may have been $26K. Both numbers jump to mind. And I didn't check to see if had right frame, forks, etc. From what I read, the bikes that were built were allocated to dealers, who were desperate for anything to sell in the war years, and they sold them outright, or civilianized them and sold them. Could have left a dealer that way.

Seemed pricey to me. Lots of lookers, no buyers on that one. At least Sat. Had it been more original or less 'work' that might have been appealing. That said, rare is rare. With all its olive drab and leather goodies, it would probably have turned into a very valuable machine.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[fillibuster]

qu Sirh: "From what I understand, the need for the XA was because the opposed cylinders, both exposed to air flow, worked better in the desert than the V-Twin configuration. Also, the XA was better suited for sidecar use." end qu

I think shaft-drive was also high-priority in design.
Those pre-war defense spenders puzzle the dickens out of me. Govt. with a fat wallet? Who'd a thunk we needed to be thrifty them days?

[Chris Haynes]

Also the XA didn't eat chains and sprockets like the WLA did. The XA was not specifically designed for desert use and none were ever sent off shore. The Army loved the XA and wanted more. But the Quartermaster wouldn't order more as they had thousands of WLA's sitting around. The final nail in the coffin was the fact that the U S Rights for the BMW had been purchased by a division of General Motors called Delco in the late 1930's. Delco and GM squaked when they found out about the XA and made H-D stop building them. H-D had planned on releasing the XA as a civillian model. H-D bought back all of the XA's and spare parts and divided them between Harry Molenaar and Dud Perkins.

[ricmoran]

Chris, if the rights to BMW were any factor, how did these companies get BMW's into US military service with BMW being a German designed and produced machine? Up till 1939 trade with England and the US continued until Sept 1939, the start of WWII with the invasion by Germany of Poland.

As I understand a little bit of this with manufacturing rights, this means designs/blueprints were in hand w/Delco.

Were any BMW designed bikes produced by Delco for war service or home front use?

I've been around WWII militaria for a long time both as a collector and a quasi dealer - just like with MC's buying to put something desireable into my collection, while trading/selling what did not fit when collections or Dad's souvenirs were bought from kids of vets - and have yet to hear of or see an American produced BMW design by Delco.

That does not mean they were not produced, but having read a lot of articles and reviewed images of re-enactor events have never seen one. For that fact, I can't remember seeing any XA's photgraphed or used for these events and only in museum settings are these even rarely seen.

Here is what is posted over at the Whermacht Awards forum when I asked for help on US produced military MC's:

There are pictures of WLAs in use by the USMC, USN and Lendleased to the Australians and other nations on my website dedicated to the WW2 HD WLA Model..

http://www.theliberator.be

US Navy Shore Patrol on a WLA in England WW2

Picture and more on this page of the site: http://www.theliberator.be/liberator1.htm

USMC MP on a WLA, Continental USA WW2

Picture and more on this page: http://www.theliberator.be/liberator2.htm

Lend-Lease WLA/WLC at: http://www.theliberator.be/liberator8.htm

These links will take you to Johans web page where there are many images of the WLA's as well as other images that are good for view of the WLA.

Thanks Johan for the reply and posting the links!

[fillibuster]

Interesting discussion Chris and Ric. I want to read more.
When you're finished with grade B you can check back in with some speculation on INDIAN'S 841 !!

[Sargehere]

INDIAN after the debacle of their WWII performance, didn't have a pot to piss in, tho many, many windows to toss it out of! They couldn't even build their most popular pre-war model, the civilian Scout, having worn out their Scout tooling building those pathetic 30.50 tiddler bikes that the gummint specified, thinking that was what they wanted.

The Springfield Indian factory went into WWII building motorcycles, and ended it stamping mess kit utensils. A sad story of corporate mismanagement. Wm. S. Harley saved the Harley-Davidson Motor Company by ignoring the inept gummint's specification for a half-liter twin bike and militarizing the WL 45, which proved to be a work horse with enough power to make a contribution to the war all over the world. Sorry, just the facts.

[panhead_jim]

Interesting discussion Chris and Ric. I want to read more.
When you're finished with grade B you can check back in with some speculation on INDIAN'S 841 !!

I'm working on putting together an article on the 841. Any pics or information would be great. Not much online that I have found.

[panhead_jim]

Also the XA didn't eat chains and sprockets like the WLA did. The XA was not specifically designed for desert use and none were ever sent off shore. The Army loved the XA and wanted more. But the Quartermaster wouldn't order more as they had thousands of WLA's sitting around. The final nail in the coffin was the fact that the U S Rights for the BMW had been purchased by a division of General Motors called Delco in the late 1930's. Delco and GM squaked when they found out about the XA and made H-D stop building them. H-D had planned on releasing the XA as a civillian model. H-D bought back all of the XA's and spare parts and divided them between Harry Molenaar and Dud Perkins.

If all they wanted was a shaft drive, why didn't Harley just design a new transmission for the WLA? I've read that the R71 design was copied because they wanted shaft drive and the cooler running flat-twin for desert use. I don't imagine that the WLA's would have had any cooling issues farther north in Europe. Any thoughts?

[ricmoran]

Johan just replied over at Whermacht Award forums and provided this link to some images of the XA:

http://www.theliberator.be/liberator5.htm

Scroll to the bottom as there are 3 or 4 for your viewing pleasure. Don't want to copy and paste because Johans web page is really a great place for research for those who have or are considering or working on their military machines.

So far i found 1 image of Indians in use on his web page, but these were seen in the mix of HD's and jeeps enmasse what looks to be like a run to a central field point.

[fillibuster]

INDIAN after the debacle of their WWII performance, didn't have a pot to piss in, tho many, many windows to toss it out of! They couldn't even build their most popular pre-war model, the civilian Scout, having worn out their Scout tooling building those pathetic 30.50 tiddler bikes that the gummint specified, thinking that was what they wanted.

The Springfield Indian factory went into WWII building motorcycles, and ended it stamping mess kit utensils. A sad story of corporate mismanagement. Wm. S. Harley saved the Harley-Davidson Motor Company by ignoring the inept gummint's specification for a half-liter twin bike and militarizing the WL 45, which proved to be a work horse with enough power to make a contribution to the war all over the world. Sorry, just the facts.

No need to apologize, sarge, I was only "poking a little skunk", sportingly. I wouldn't argue with a thing you said, and have read as much from books like Sucher's. Other bits of info can be confounding too. Like I said, why the war department spends the way it does, even at the tail end of a Great Depression that was far from over (it was a loooonnggg tail), that's interesting stuff to me. .. got a book to suggest?
for another: Why would the war dept spec a 30.50 without refusing to consider Indian's keystone frame? Can't help but say, "what were they thinking?"

but grade B is still grade B.. sorry, that's the facts!

[sirhrmechanic]

I'll have to go look at a couple of references to get the details right... But Indian got the shaft from the War Department on several occasions. Their wartime record was not as bad as it might look at first glance.

Yes, Harley provided a bigger bike for the same price. But Indian followed the rules. That's not mismanagment. That's following the rules. HD took a risk and won. That's exceptional management. Indian was good. HD was better. Darwinism works. In addition, Indian WAS awarded some big contracts including by Canada. They got a major one early in the war from France. Built the bikes. And France capitulated before they could get the bikes or pay for them. The US Army ordered bikes. But then cancelled orders -- often after bikes were built. And the massive US Army order that went in for 741 Spare parts was cancelled After Indian had made all the parts and the govt refused to accept or pay for them. Indian was left with a massive inventory with no customer. Inventory costs money. The parts are still out there being used to restore bikes...

Remember that the War Department and their procurement arms in WW2 were anything but perfect. They grew too fast. The bureaucracies were rife with corruption, pork and contractual mis-management. Congress was at the trough like never before. Remember that the only reason Harry Truman ended up in the public eye (and Roosevelt's VP) was because (in order to get himself out from under the shadow of corrupt Kansas City Machine politics that put him in the senate) Truman became a crusader against War Department corruption. And did a good job. He became a celebrity exposing waste and corruption and Roosevelt needed that status to run for a 4th term (which was very controversial.)

Another great example of the War Department BS is the Jeep... developed by Bantam w. Willys Overland. Yanked away from the inventors and given to Ford who made most of the Jeeps and the wartime profits. Willys ended up with enough production to stay viable. Bantam... went bye-bye. Completely screwed. An interesting tidbit is that in getting the contract, Ford was required to put its logo in every single part so their Jeeps could be distinguished from the 'original' makers jeeps. Every lock washer, screw, bolt, wood hood block... every part made by Ford had to have the Ford Script on it. You will see those parts today.

For some good reading on the wartime economy, check out Richard Overy's "Why the Allies Won." Very extensive look at the good, the bad and the ugly of the US wartime economy. Also Brinkley's Wheels for the World. For a good look at Indian's wartime debacles, look at The Iron Redskin and The Harley Davidson and Indian Wars. Iron Redskin being the more detailed book.

All that said... Indian did not do everything right. Their postwar strategy had some merit on paper (British vertical twin style bikes WERE among the dominant machines of the postwar period... and even HD had to respond with the sportster, Whizzer, Hummer, Topper, etc. to the changing GI and Boomer markets.). But Indian's execution was terrible. They put a Naval engineer in charge of MC engine design and it was a disaster. The vertical twins were great on paper, but they sucked in reality and they damaged the brand. Indian failed to listen to customers to bring back the Scout or a 'lightweight hi-power' V-Twin bike to complement their heavyweight. And their Chief, while luxurious, was not as performance-capable as the Panhead -- and it was a lot heavier. Their market research and overall insular view re. their customers was the nail in the coffin. They spent their credit limit. Had no way out and no bike that could 'save them' and that was that.

But you can't entirely blame their wartime record or their wartime management. That they came out of WW2 at all was lucky. Lots of companies didn't.

Later, when I have a few minutes, I'll post a related theory of mine about why Indian prices have taken such a dive in recent years... just a theory, but I'll be interested in folks opinions.

Interesting thread... thanks PanJim!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[Rubone]

Thanks for adding more to the Indian story for those who have not read about it in the past. But please take that "Whizzer" out of the H-D listing and put the "K" in there where it belongs, not the Sportster, a late comer to the party.