I see Bonhams just sold my old Indian 4 but....

[KNUCK]

I sold this 1941 Indian four DDA 251, to a Mr Hobday who owned the Eddie Rickenbackers bar and grill in San Francisco about 25 yrs ago. He had many other wonderful motorcycles hanging in the place. He put a little sign on it, said belonged to Clark Gable. He thought is was a funny little thing to add for talk.

Mr Hobday died a year ago. The estate had Bonham sell it for them today. When I heard about the veiled claim in their catalog I emailed them. They pretty much blew me off and now I see it sold for about $40k+ You can see for yourself how they wrote it up, just go on line.

If you bought the bike I would be willing to tell you the correct history of the bike.

[sirhrmechanic]

Knuck:

You are SO right!

I was involved with Bonhams at the Simeone sale. And right now, they are the biggest bunch of IDIOTS in the auction market.

The crew doing the day-to-day operations in Motoring department are completely out to lunch. I had more than 150 lots in the Simeone sale... and the number of typos, the incompetent marketing, the utter disdain they put to the catalog information was appalling, pathetic and infuriating. They ignored dozens of edits I provided, bBut they hid behind lines like "That's what the lawyer signed off on." They gave away the cars and parts we had listed, only doing half-way decently on the automobilia... Utterly appalling performance. If you watch "Chasing Classic Cars" the most recent episode was about that sale. And the Phantom that Wayne Carrini bought was part of our estate. The car auctioneer was so completely out to lunch (No regrets... No regrets... Any more bids? No regrets?) he didn't even see Carrini JUMPING UP AND DOWN and waving his placard while spotlighted by a TV camera right in front of him. Wayne had to Yell at the auctioneer to get noticed and put in a bid. (It's on TV... you can watch it happen! I was standing 5 feet away.) Tip for you Bonhams... don't put Monty Python's "Upper Class Twit of the Year" on stage to sell 6 figure cars even if he is probably the third Earl of Blivetsphincter and looks good on your company masthead! Try using a real auctioneer.... You know... one who knows what it means to BID?

The Simeone auction 'team leader' was from San Fran and New York... an effette little meterosexual who was quite pleased to brag that he never owned a car (except an old Cadillac his family gave him and he got rid of it as soon as he could) . Yes... this art-history-major fruitbat who probably masturbates to pictures of Al Gore is running things from the back of a taxi or off some kind of eco-bicycle. Wouldn't you think that you might want, say, someone who LIKES internal combustion engines to run car auctions? Another of the team was a haughty little twerp whose mission in life is to suck up to the Bonhams Chairman and sweet-talk elderly men out of their car collections. You'll know him when he starts to try and talk you out of your cars. He fancies himself quite the car expert, but has his head so far up his ass that he has to fart to blow his nose. He was so obnoxious that one of my friends who met him at Pebble said "What a little ****" after about a 30 second introduction.

Anyone who thinks putting a vehicle in a Bonhams auction these days is nuts... the players in the auction market these days are Gooding and RM. At the lower end, Barrett Jackson (just because they run a spectacle that brings out big dollars.) But Bonhams is just a pathetic excuse for an auction company right now... at least in their Motoring Department. Maybe with a major cleaning-house or some adult supervision they might come back. But right now Bonhams is the joke of the industry and I wouldn't have them auction off a used lawn mower.

Pardon my rant, but I am still furious with the entire bunch of pompous asses at Bonhams Motoring dept.

Caveat emptor... At every level.

Sirhr

[MMasa]

Sirhr
Please don't hold back. How do you REALLY feel?
LOL
What a bunch of clowns. I'd be pissed too.
Mark

[KNUCK]

I see I am not the only one that has concerns about them. Thanks for the additional feed back.

I should also add that I went to the Bonham Auction in Carmel, CA. at Quail Lodge, and even advised them of my knowledge on this Indian issue this past year. (The Indian 4 did not sell.) He told me it would then go to Las Vegas. Then later I sent the email. Still they stuck to their catalog listing. I was thinking to buy it back but so much for that after talking to them.

[c.o.]

What Mark said... wow... I'm thinking I may have succumbed to a head explosion!

[kval]

I sold this 1941 Indian four DDA 251, to a Mr Hobday who owned the Eddie Rickenbackers bar and grill in San Francisco about 25 yrs ago. He had many other wonderful motorcycles hanging in the place. He put a little sign on it, said belonged to Clark Gable. He thought is was a funny little thing to add for talk.

Mr Hobday died a year ago. The estate had Bonham sell it for them today. When I heard about the veiled claim in their catalog I emailed them. They pretty much blew me off and now I see it sold for about $40k+ You can see for yourself how they wrote it up, just go on line.

If you bought the bike I would be willing to tell you the correct history of the bike.

Knuck
over 5 years ago, I was in CA and went to their auction as a spectator. before the auction I walked around looking at the bikes. an Indian w/sidecar caught my eye. looking over the bike, the tag said it was a 1947. I went over to the desk and introduced myself, gave them my card stating that I was the Chief Judge for the AMCA.
I informed them that the bike was actually a 1950. when the bike came up for sale, I was sorry that I did not register. they introduced it as a 1947, and did not really try very hard to get bids. I could have bought the bike w/sidecar, shipped it back to NJ, took the sidecar off, sold it and still had a pretty good 1950 Indian Chief for FREE

[rwm]

i deal with auctions daily basis. they are in the sales business and that's it. they are not in to art history motorcycle history or anything you think they are. it's profit and profit only. they are not accountable for an auctions description. the consigner is. if the consigner is not at the auction bonhams can not change the description of the item.THE CONSIGNER WILL SUE THEM.
i understand folks wanting to change what an auctioneer put for their goods and for all things to be listed right. bottom line is auctions don't care if you buy an item from them that is wrong you can return it. they dont like you to. but you can. ALL AN AUCTIONEER WANTS TO DO IS BRING A BUYER AND SELLER TO A SALE OF GOODS. THEY DONT WANT TO SHIP, CLEAN OR PHOTOGRAPH THE GOODS. JUST SELL IT AND GET 22-30% OF THE SALE

[exeric]

It's obvious we have some very knowledgable people here regarding auctions. How do people feel about the motorcycle auctions in Las Vegas? Is that a viable way to sell a bike and get a good return; or is it more trouble than it's worth?

[duffeycycles]

I thought that they have saturated the market with Vegas auctions,resulting in holding back prices, hurting bike and part sales for months.Recently the biggest prices [on select bikes] seem to be ebay or private sales

[rwm]

It's obvious we have some very knowledgable people here regarding auctions. How do people feel about the motorcycle auctions in Las Vegas? Is that a viable way to sell a bike and get a good return; or is it more trouble than it's worth?

it's more trouble then it's worth for some. lets say you belong to a motorcycle club like this one. you will know people that want your bike. there may even be a good chance you promised to sell it to someone when the time comes. you take that person the bike and they pay you cash. that's not bad for a private sale. now if you list it in a magazine or the web. strangers come to your house to look at your bike. they may buy or not. they may even rob you. so most don't like that option.
on line auctions are a flat fee. plus paypal fees. this route has no buyer premium. things can go wrong with this option. we seem to see some great prices realized for sellers.
if you use an auction house. they take a cut of the sale. sellers premium 15-30%. this is a sliding scale based on the price realized. the also add a buyers premium , credit card premium and a premium if you are not on the floor bidding. that can go as high as 22% this is a fixed rate at most auctions. it does not decrease with a higher sale price. an auction house can hold your money for 90 days after sale. THEY WILL SEND YOU A 1099. they will not disclose your name to the buyer or public. that is a plus to some. they will make you bring the bike to them. so now your bike needs to get from FLORIDA to NEVADA. if it does not sell it must leave that day. if you know nothing about bikes they are a great option to sell one. lets say your grand pa past away and leaves you a bike. you do a google search and see bonhams top prices. you call them and they sweet talk you into consigning with them. they sell your bike for $38.000. take their cut and you realize $32.000 it's a good deal.
i dont think i have enough time to give you the fool scope of auctions. i do feel that anyone here could pull off a sale for a bike worth 6 figures if they had the bike. you know the buyer's. everyone on this forum knows or is one or two friends away from the ability to pull it off.

[exeric]

Thanks Rob, that's the kind of information I was looking for. I know you deal with auction houses and know your way around that maze.

[sirhrmechanic]

RWM is right on in several respects... despite the 'posh veneer' that some auction companies adopt... they are looking for fees. And they get them.

Where I blew a gasket on Bonhams is that even when provided correct information, they were simply too lazy to incorporate it. In addition, putting completely unrealistic estimates with lots is neither productive, nor is it good for sales. And when I say unrealistic... I mean stupid low. I understand the psychology of bringing in people by making them think a bargain is to be found... but at some level, if you see 'experts' estimating that a concours Chief will sell for $12K... do you think it's a bargain, or that it's a POS and they know something you don't?

I also deal with auction companies on a regular basis. And I love both capitalists and mercenaries. If you are a seller, the guys who get the best dollar are the ones you want on your side. If you are a buyer, a well-run auction can be a great place to get a bargain (or get hosed), but the hunt is part of the fun.

What I DO expect is honesty, integrity and at least some effort to make an accurate representation of the article or vehicle. Lazyness and ignorance have no place in any industry, particularly not when representing high-end vehicles or collectibles.

Another thing that Rob brings up that is important... auctions are a great place to offer things that you want gone... fast... with no comebacks. That's a great caveat emptor for buyers. And a great comfort for some sellers. My experience is that the best vehicles (cars, bikes, whatever) change hands between club members and friends on a handshake and word of mouth. The junk often ends up in auctions. Not always... often large estates or collections (which was what we had at Simeone) can be dispositioned for heirs in a predictable or rapid manner vs. several years worth of selling individual vehicles or parts. But for the inexperienced buyer in particular, the auction can be like going through a mine field on a pogo stick at midnight in a wind storm. You might get lucky. More often than not, you will get burned.

For the new collector or inexperienced buyer (and this has been brought up on this site many times), do your research. Find a mentor. Spend months (or years) searching for a vehicle. You may WANT an old Harley. But you don't need one. Not this minute. It may FEEL like you need one. But you don't. So spend the time. The right bike will come along. And it may well come along when a friend calls you out of the blue and says "Aren't you looking for a ...."

Just some thoughts... and don't get the idea that I am down on auction companies in general. As I said, there are some good ones out there and I think, today, Gooding is the class of the lot. Mid-America (now RM, I think) has a great model and I liked their Bid/Buy format from their tent at Pebble. I came very close to coming home with a couple of bikes from that auction/sale. My objections aren't to the auction industry... it is to those in the auction industry who are running their houses with no integrity and no intelligence.

Apologize in advance for rambles... it's late in the day and my coffee is wearing off. If I get too much blood in my caffeine stream, I get mean.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[rwm]

in 2003 christies and sothebys both split a $512 million suit for over charging on premiums. i wrote a more detailed post but lost it some how and gave up on doing it again.

[sirhrmechanic]

Yup... that was about the time Miles Morris left Christies. Christies got out of autos after Miles left.

A little after that, Bonhams got nailed for 'taking bids from the chandeleir' as it's known...

Do you really know who you are bidding against? Or is the auctioneer just running up the price on you until it meets reserve... pointing at the overhead lighting as if it's a bidder.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[c.o.]

Mmmm... Sirhr... lazy and incorrect descriptions.. http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/2046...3D19%26r1%3D10 It's good to be learning somthing about these auction houses. Thanks to both you and Rob for the nitty gritty.