New Judging reference handbook

[Sargehere]

(Edit: I meant: New "Judging Guidelines Manual")

I just came home from Eustis (thirty long miles!), where I once again participated in the Sunday morning judging.

Clete Borchert, "Old Dude," of Lilburn, Georgia, was the biggest vendor set up inside the big building yesterday; he had a spread of tables loaded with all of his boxes of tasty little one-of-a-kind special Harley hardware bits. (He has my vote!) (Whatever he runs for!) Clete keeps thousands of us on the road and in the restoration hobby with all those little jewels, easily accessible at very fair prices. But, anyway, Clete was packed up and gone today, moved on to wherever he sets up for the rest of Bike Week over Daytona-way.

With all that open gymnasium-sized floor space, Chief Judge Steve Dawdy made the call, and Sunday judging was held indoors this year. The Judges' Breakfast was at its usual 8 am, and the formal judging started at 9. I just want to publicly applaud Chief Judge Dawdy for great the job he's done, bringing AMCA judging into the 21st Century in this last year.

One of his latest milestones was publishing a new Judging Guidelines Manual (downloadable off this AMCA website). I think it's great! He and the judging team have quantified and "regularized" the things, like "how many points off for... ?" this or that, in each of the 25 categories on our hundred-point judging sheet. And they answered age-old questions like, specifically: "what's the difference between an 'option' and an 'accessory?'" It's all 'in the book,' now, easily referenced, and it makes the jobs of both the restorers and judges a helluva lot easier, as a result of their helluva lotta work.

Each judging team had a bound, hard-copy of the new Judging Guidelines Manual in our hands as we assigned numbers to the discrepencies that we had already noted on our inspections of the bikes, and I was glad to see that we finally have a standard we can refer to for every quarter-point, half-point and up to six point (for repop frame) deduction. Just reading the new Manual should eliminate most of the nit-picky conflicts and arguments and appeals we used to go through, over-and-over. Today, "it's in the book." Thanks, Steve, and Judging Rules Team! I like the job you're doing.

[sunnydave]

Sargehere
I was there, and if it was so great why was there over 20 bikes less then last year and why did I hear that Steve is stepping down as Chief Judge after this meet?? sounds like all is not well in paradise!

[Sargehere]

Sargehere
I was there, and if it was so great why was there over 20 bikes less then last year and why did I hear that Steve is stepping down as Chief Judge after this meet?? sounds like all is not well in paradise!

In answer to your first question (why fewer bikes are showing up at one meet: 1). Mebbe cuz it's a dang-sight harder to win what used-to-be near-rubber stamp "Junior Firsts," and Seniors, and (Gawd help me!) AMCA "Winners Circle" awards than it used to be? or: 2). Maybe cuz it costs ten or twenty bucks just to enter your bike in the national judging, that I can remember usta be "free to all comers?"

This club was relatively rolling in dough when it was carefully managed, and "grown" from almost nothing [in the early Seventies, when I joined it] by real business-savvy financial wizards in the 1980s and '90s, like Ed Higgins, Ralph Mundell, Bud Cox, and dear Bob McClean, among others; real care-takers and astute businessmen; unfortunately, almost all dead now, [also, pre-"Foundation," "Museum" "Website," "Library" and all that]. Chief Judge Steve Dawby lives in Iowa, near the center of the country.

Remember, it's an unpaid, volunteer position. But the AMCA Chief Judge is expected (by the members, and the junior judges) to make every National Meet; to show his face. --It's too bad that Howard Hughes is daid. He may soon be the only person alive who could AFFORD to keep this club's judges all reading off the same sheet of music-- showing up all over the country all Summer long, at minimum, holding Judges' Seminars on Saturday and managing the judging on Sunday.

Would you like to give it a shot, Sunnydave? Be careful what you wish for (and be careful what you jump into, knowing only bits and pieces of the whole picture). First, you have to be dedicated enuf to this club to give up whatever you've made of your life-so-far, and give your life over to "The Club, The Club and The Club," and, second, you must be organized enuf (an organizational wizard!) to plan, achieve, and then maintain the high judging standards that we've all come to expect of "restoration" recognition by the premier Antique Motorcycle orgaization on the planet.

"Winners Circle" is no longer a cakewalk. Bikes with funny numbers and/or "only slightly mismatched" engines and frames are no longer "given a pass" to the Winners Circle, like they usta (FACT). That could be another reason for the drop off in entrants to judging; it's lately gotten much harder to win a national award of even-higher status. The fewer entrants is only a reflection of the fact that it's getting harder to win a national award.

All-in-all, your dedication to the club (just my estimate, given today's gas prices) will probably only cost you about $15,000-$20,000 per annum, and that's not including the depreciation, wear-and-tear and upkeep on whatever you're driving all over the country. Alternatives? Have you priced bare-bones what-passes-for-airline-service in this country, lately? Time is money, but you won't have much of either for very long, Sunnydave. I can remember when the late Chief Judge Peter Heintz used to criss-cross the country in his not-insubstantial motorhome all Summer, based out of Tennessee. Fuel was also less than a buck-a-gallon when he did that. Last I saw, diesel is almost four dollars for those same 3.85 liters. Basically, unless the club kicks in mileage, I don't think any one person will be able to represent the club at National Meets all over the country and stay out of the poorhouse.

That's all it is to it, Sunnydave. It's not internecine club political shenanigans. It's not philosophical differences among members and former members of the Board. It's practicality:The club is moving one GIANT step closer, it seems to me, to becoming an exclusive, wealthy man's/person's playground. Soon, they'll be only the wealthy with vast disposable income who can afford to play with antique motorcycles like we do, today. Blue collars like me, and most of the backbone of this club will need no longer to apply. We can no longer afford to travel to participate with our motorcycles; I mean, "investment opportunities for the wealthy."

[bill campbell]

Remember, it's an unpaid, volunteer position. But the AMCA Chief Judge is expected (by the members, and the junior judges) to make every National Meet; to show his face. --It's too bad that Howard Hughes is daid. He may soon be the only person alive who could AFFORD to keep this club's judges all reading off the same sheet of music-- showing up all over the country all Summer long, at minimum, holding Judges' Seminars on Saturday and managing the judging
That's all it is to it, Sunnydave. It's not internecine club political shenanigans. It's not philosophical differences among members and former members of the Board. It's practicality:The club is moving one GIANT step closer, it seems to me, to becoming an exclusive, wealthy man's/person's playground. Soon, they'll be only the wealthy with vast disposable income who can afford to play with antique motorcycles like we do, today. Blue collars like me, and most of the backbone of this club will need no longer to apply. We can no longer afford to travel to participate with our motorcycles; I mean, "investment opportunities for the wealthy."[/QUOTE]
I always thought the judges and members of the board was reimbursed for traveling

[45OZ]

Sargehere
I was there, and if it was so great why was there over 20 bikes less then last year and why did I hear that Steve is stepping down as Chief Judge after this meet?? sounds like all is not well in paradise!

What about Robin Markey, He knew what it was, that it's an unpaid, volunteer position, he knew AMCA Chief Judge is expected (by the members, and the junior judges) to make every National Meet; to show his face, I do not know any one more dedicated enuf to this club to give up whatever you've made of your life-so-far, and give your life over to "The Club, The Club and The Club," and, second, you must be organized enuf (an organizational wizard!) to plan, achieve, and then maintain the high judging standards that we've all come to expect of "restoration" recognition by the premier Antique Motorcycle orgaization on the planet.


You Know, Robin Markey, He was the Assistant Chief Judge till the end of bike week last year, when he was forced out of the position.

He has been involved in the AMCA judging system for approximately 35 years, from the Doc Patt days till the present. This had been a very large part of his life, growing up in an Indian, Royal Enfield and Honda shop and most of his life has been riding, repairing, restoring and judging. IHe is known throughout the world for his Indian and vintage Honda knowledge. he also been sharing his knowledge with our AMCA members and countless other people throughout the world. he has always tried to do his best to help the antique and vintage motorcycle world.
I guess according to Bill Campbell & Sargehere comments, THIS is the kind of person needed for cheif Judge
BUT WHERE O WHERE CAN THE CLUB FIND SOMEONE LIKE THIS ????

[felthamw]

Sargehere
I was there, and if it was so great why was there over 20 bikes less then last year and why did I hear that Steve is stepping down as Chief Judge after this meet?? sounds like all is not well in paradise!

Sunnydave,
If you were there then you know what the weather forecast was. 80% chance of rain for Sunday morning. (I had enough of the rain on Friday when it was supposed to be nice - took four hours to clean up the bike for Sunday). Glad they moved it inside! But it didn't rain much either. Surprise! Welcome to FLA.
I heard nothing about anyone stepping down.
I think that the judging went off VERY well. Thanks to everybody the puts so much time into this endeavor!
Sincerely,
Wayne E. Feltham #4329

[Sargehere]

45OZ, you missed some of the other things I said:

"Winners Circle" is no longer a cakewalk. Bikes with funny numbers and/or "only slightly mismatched" engines and frames are no longer "given a pass" to the Winners Circle, like they usta (FACT).

What about Robin Markey (?) ... You Know, Robin Markey, He was the Assistant Chief Judge till the end of bike week last year, when he was forced out of the position.

Correction: Until he resigned in a snit because he wasn't immediately offered the top spot, as he expected, and then whined and ranted about his error here on the forum, trying to stir up support for a revolt within the club for almost six months? You mean that Robin Markey? He's been helpful to many members for many years, but I also go back in AMCA Judging to the old Doc Patt "beauty contest" days, and even judged with Robin at Wauseon and Davenport in the '80s, when he and I were mostly "it." He did the Indians and I "did" the Harleys. I'm sorry, Robin's a good man, and I wish him well, but the AMCA needs a grownup in the Chief Judge's position.

What I said up above:

it's a dang-sight harder to win what used-to-be near-rubber stamp "Junior Firsts," and Seniors, and (Gawd help me!) AMCA "Winners Circle" awards than it used to be (now, having been cleaned up under Chief Judge Steve Dawdy)

(and I also said that:

elevation of exemplary motorcycles to the "Winners Circle" is no longer a cakewalk. Bikes with funny numbers and/or "only slightly mismatched" engines and frames are no longer "given a pass" to the Winners Circle, like they usta (FACT).

The late Peter Heintz developed and left for us as his legacy a modern, 100 points-based judging system. The standard he set was that any bike qualified for judging by the club should be at least fully qualified to be tweaked and perfected by its owner until it might be elevated to The Winners' Circle, representing the historical accuracy the AMCA strives to preserve for future generations.

But as any savvy manager (of almost anything) knows, without receiving constant attention and refocus on its core principles, any complex system deteriorates, and gradually, if not rapidly, devolves into chaos. Bikes never seen to run were judged ("but we passed that responsibility to the sponsoring chapter to see that they run." -- No, it's not.)

I like the changes instituted by Steve Dawdy and the present Judging Rules Team. I especially like the new Judging Guidelines Manual, which at least suggests order out of chaos, as different AMCA judges have applied their personal, often wildly differing ideas of what the various deductions were "worth."

That might have been the hardest thing to convey to Apprentice Judges on the judging field, with so many different bikes out there with so many different features. Now, I can see some order and uniformity dawning across the categories, bike-to-bike and judging team to judging team, and it took someone with imagination to think of it and the drive to make that happen.

There's a new judging system for "real" racing bikes, and also "factory restored" race models just coming in that shows a lot of good features, and will be another feather in the cap of the present Chief Judge. If you don't move forward, you fall further and further behind. The club doesn't need caretakers, night watchmen in key positions, interested only in their titles, it needs forward-thinking leaders, and I see that today.

I'm sorry, but until last year, I watched somewhat horrified as bikes with restamped engine numbers (always a bad sign!) were "passed" by the former National Judging regime and allowed to be judged. To me, a restamped engine represents what might well be a bike that was listed on this board the previous year in the "Hot Sheet" forum. No, thanks! I don't want to go back to that.

[36 knuck man]

Sarge, sorry I missed you, I left sat night, I still have a job I must tend to. There is one thing however that I dont understand about judging. When a bike is judged for the 1st time, and let us say it receives a jr 1st. So the owner goes back home and works off the gigs hoping for a sr the next time out only to have a different team of judges find things that were not even found the 1st time. For consecientsy sake it would seem to me that once the gigs are corrected the bike would move on to the next level, just my thoughts however I still think they work hard and do a good job, thanks, Larry

[vph-d]

As a newly minted Field Judge, I think the new guideline book is wonderful. I down-loaded the book prior to going to Freemont, in order to study it. Assigning a point value to incorrect pieces has been worrisome to me, but not anymore!
Who's ever responsible for the effort on the book is to be thanked.

BTW, Steve Dawdy was at the Freemont meet and held apprentice and field judge seminars the day prior to judging.
Steve answered a lot of questions, and was easy to talk to during judging.

VPH-D

[bikerdds]

Sarge,

You’re way off base saying Robin resigned in a snit and whined about it. That couldn’t be further from the truth. He put out the truth of the matter to let the membership know that he didn’t give up the ship, he was pushed off the plank. Further, I was there and personally witnessed the humiliation done to Robin. Anyone who had been treated like that would have lashed back also. After 35 years of selfless giving to the club, this was the ultimate slap in the face.
He told them what was going to happen to the judging and guess what, he was right. Robin and Kevin made a lot of changes to the Peter Heinz days, changes for the good, but they made them a little at a time so as not to overwhelm the bike owners or the judges. What we have had this last year is an overwhelming of the system of changes. Further, again, many of the most knowledgeable who tried to help with the "new" rules were also unceremoniously kicked out. This is not meant to be a slap at Steve. He tried to do an overwhelming job with the odds stacked against him. You just can't deny that the core group has settled on the sidelines.
We also have seen the rule changes that have taken all meaning and value out of the judging. I'm personally tired of all those excuses offered by the board about the disclaimer. If you can't take pride in your machine and think that judging positively affects your bikes value why even bother. For over 50 years this club ADVERTISED that judging could increase the value of you motorcycle. Now that has been taken from us as well.

It doesn’t matter how many manuals, guidelines or rules a judging hierarchy comes up with, if you don’t have good judges on the field, the judging will fail. I was and still support much of what was trying to be accomplished in the rules committee, especially trying to get the point deductions more consistant, which was something even the previous team had wanted, so don't lay on them that they were not in favor of rule changes. You also seem to forget that there was much open hostility toward the judging when Kevin and Robin took over when owners had been kept from the judging process. That did more to get more bikes in the field than you can ever imagine. We had owners happy to be involved in the process, and got new judges as a result. Someone with knowledge must interpret those rules and use those rules. They took the most knowledgeable guys on the AMCA judging and booted them out, (call it what you want, but we all know how it happened…..the facts by those that were there, not your rendition).

Now, you think it’s harder to get a higher score these days. Wrong. Here again, it comes back to knowledge. If a judge doesn’t know what’s correct, he doesn’t note that on the sheet and he doesn’t go to the new manual that was created to figure out how many points to give it, because HE DIDN’T KNOW IT WAS WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE. One judging sheet from a recently judged motorcycle, had points deducted for one item that was actually correct, but, they missed about a dozen items that should have had points deducted. They gave it a Jr First and it should have been a Jr Second. So you can’t say it’s harder to get a higher award. I would say you heard that from the guy that’s behind a lot of the judging changes, that with their wonderful new rules, it’s harder to get a higher award, well it’s not. I was also involved with an attempt at a point appeal, but the guy lost the appeal when several unknowledgeable judges convince the head judge there was not enough evidense to back the change. I can show factory pictures of the situation to prove the man's point, but they even undercut the few remaining judges with stunts like that to where they will not be involved any further.

In response to your engine numbers, here again, you have to know what you’re looking at. You have to have a qualified judge look at them and know the history of that particular brand to know if it could possibly be a restamp. Here’s another thing to think about, who made the AMCA the policing force for restamps. IF we’re really here to preserve history and a number looks funny, but it’s the best original or restored bike in the world, we’re telling the owner (who probably purchased it honestly) that even though it’s the best in the world, you won’t get an award from the AMCA because one of our judges THINKS it might be a bad number.

Robin and Kevin never said they never made mistakes, they’re human, but if you think the judging has been better this last year, then it was when they were in charge, you have no clue what’s happening in the AMCA Judging world. Also, Kevin and Robin were never just interested in their titles, I don’t think you know them very well at all, your comment about Robin not being a grownup, proves it.
You better also look at the fact that the number of bikes being judged has dropped dramatically. It isn't the money, either. Sure, the judging costs the club. The judging used to be the shining star of the AMCA. We[AMCA judging] were the best when it came to judging these type motor vehicles, and our style has been copied by other clubs. If you feel the level of judging hasn't changed, or think it has changed for the better, you are in denial. Period. Most of the Indian judges have backed away. If the club wants to be a mostly HD based club, so be it. We can take Indian judging rogue. There are other Indian groups that can take up the slack so that an Indian can be judged by the best and most knowledgeable we have. Almost every make has suffered under this last year. Time to stop drinking the Koolaid.

The AMCA threw out some good men.

[Sargehere]

Like it or not, Bikerdds, AMCA Judging is developing just fine. Spin it all you want. The first half is obviously over. Those that you report are hanging on the sidelines to see how the (judging) game develops have just made themselves spectators for the second half. Remember President Ronald Reagan and the illegal 1981 "PATCO" air-traffic controllers strike? They thought they were untouchable. He fired the bunch, and the nation's air transportation system survived.

I've been out there on the judging field with new, enthusiastic and knowledgeable judges, and plenty of long-time hands. I'll tell you that nothing happens overnight, but those mired in the past are just being left behind. Time marches on, ya know. I don't have any worries about the future of AMCA judging. And your tired complaints about the specific rule-changes ar just that. There are avenues to propose refinements; try working within the system as it is. As much as you might hope, judging hasn't "failed." It's alive and thriving, with both old and new blood. And no one with a whit of dedication got "booted."

Kevin Valentine quit when he walked out of the 2010 AMCA Board meeting in Eustis that night last year. I don't care how tired everyone was, he voted with his feet. Tempers flared in the hallway, as was reported in detail, but Kevin was certainly the more mature man, showed some spine, and kept working within the leadership of the club, in this forum, for the rest of the year.

Robin Markey OTOH, resigned at the end of Bike Week last year, rather than cooperate with the new judging (as a real grownup would). He reported and reported the circumstances for all of us to know intimately, ad nauseum, right here in the Judging Forum, Bikerdds.

I don't relish dragging all of this crap up again, but Robin took thousands of words to describe what went on. You didn't have to "be there," to hear the voice of someone in over his head and drowning in self pity. And, sure, this boiling down by me of the essence is out-of-context, but the pared context is a pained, rambling, obviously immature discourse that runs to pages and pages, and I can't do it any other way:

(AMCA President Rocky Halter) told me that I was not fired and I could still be the Assistant Chief Judge as long as I (would) work under the new chief judge and abided by all these new changes... but I turned around and went back and informed the president that I cannot accept his ultimatum, but would be glad to be the chief judge and in charge. So I was replaced."

Here: http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...stile-Takeover

He couldn't be in charge, so he quit. That, to me, and I think to most lucid people, amounts to a "snit." Spin it all you want, bikerdds. As I told Robin then, in this forum: Rocky is the President, the decision to change the Judging rules has been made, and you salute and carry out the orders of those placed in office over you in the hierarchy or get the H. out of the way. Robin appears to have had other ideas, trying to foment all the dissent/disharmony within the club that he could muster. That's not maturity, and the AMCA leadership, and most of the membership, was not impressed.

I feel for Robin, he tried as hard as he could, but he took all the wrong actions, because he based his actions not on what already was, but on what he thought he could do to up end the decisions that had already been made that he didn't agree with, and because "they didn't put him in charge." If someone with that attitude was an employee of mine, he'd be unemployed. How about you, bikerdds?

Now, tell me again about who's been been gulping at the Kool-aid trough, denying reality.

[Sargehere]

Sarge, sorry I missed you, I left sat night, I still have a job I must tend to. There is one thing however that I dont understand about judging. When a bike is judged for the 1st time, and let us say it receives a jr 1st. So the owner goes back home and works off the gigs hoping for a sr the next time out only to have a different team of judges find things that were not even found the 1st time. For consecientsy sake it would seem to me that once the gigs are corrected the bike would move on to the next level, just my thoughts however I still think they work hard and do a good job, thanks, Larry

Sorry we didn't meet up, Larry! On the first and subsequent judgings, it is something that, unfortunately, happens. but under the guidelines, the judges have, I think, about 25 minutes to "do" a bike, often less at a well-attended meet. The completed judging sheet can't be looked at as a warrantee that these and only these things are wrong and will have to be corrected to advance to the next level.

Ultimately, responsibility for the correctness of a restoration lies with the person doing the restoring. A completed judging sheet is only a guideline. In this computer age there are reams of information and personal contacts available to complete the most important part of every restoration: the research. The first judging result should be viewed as a guide, but not as a guarantee that if you fix this and that, you'll advance to the next level at the next meet.

It might, but you can't ask that judges overlook things that would also contribute to the greater historical accuracy of the vehicle just because they weren't noticed at the first judging. The bike will move to the next level when it achieves that higher level of authenticity, whether immediately, or after two or more judgings, but it's nothing to lose hope about. Each judging provides entirely new sets of eyes, often with fresh perspectives, enriching the final product of your considerable efforts. Don't give up!
Catch you there next year!

[bikerdds]

Sarge, check back to Robin's quote from 5/1/10:
"It's a shame you weren't in the lobby of the hotel like I was. Kevin walked out of the board meeting, he did not quite the AMCA or the position of Chief Judge. I was in the lobby discussing the disclaimer with Richard Spagnolli, board member, approximately 15 feet from Rocky and Kevin and heard with my own ears Rocky firing Kevin. You were also not in my trailer Sunday when I was given the ultimatum by Rocky and also given till the end of bike week to give him my answer. You were also not with me during bike week to see me being snubbed by the new chief judge, the person Rocky wanted me to work under in his ultimatum. So after a week's worth of being snubbed, I stopped at Rocky's trailer on Saturday, which you weren't there in Rocky's trailer either, that's when I gave Rocky my ultimatum which was make me Chief Judge like you said you would in your email to me in November, or fire me. Seems pretty plain to me."

So you are off base with your facts.
So what did Kevin and Robin do to deserve your what appears as this hatred? Way over the top, man! There was a lot that set this in motion well before the board meeting that you obviously were not aware of.
I will agree with you that the judging is an on going thing that constantly needs to be messaged, but do you just accept everything like a lemming going over a cliff blindly following it's leader? That makes as much sense as agreeing with congress getting us further in debt like it will just disappear or fix itself, while we fall further behind other countries and spend ourselves into backrupcy. One person [the RIGHT person] can make a difference. This is also why we have a committee although many were asked[forced out] to leave. No one has been asked to not judge that I know, however, they just are uncomfortable with the circumstances which should be a private matter.
I also agree with trying to move forward, but when moving forward has set you backward based on results, it is time to realize what has really happened. That is why I mentioned you are drinking the Koolaid. LESS bikes are being judged. Period. Just look at eustis two years ago and compare to this year. And, being judged by less qualified individual in most cases.You can rant all you want about all the great new judges working with the older judges, but what good are they when the knowledge is on the sidelines to teach them right. Right or wrong,do you really feel that is what they want? The bottom line is, NO ONE handled this correctly, but I guess we can just believe there is nothing wrong with our judging or at least it's politics and continue to see it go down hill with less and less bikes being judged more and more poorly. To think otherwise is not reality. Even with an additional meet last year, the count was down significantly.
I gave a lot of credit to Steve for trying to accomplish what he did. He did not ask for what happened. You never have to agree with everything that is out on the table, however. You don't just move ahead blindly , either. And you are wrong if you believe folks weren't removed from the judging committee. They were among the most knowledgeable with years of experience and many with well over 100 bikes judged, as well as building and entering bikes of their own.
Second half? I didn't know we were playing football, but the way our judging hobby has been kicked around lately, I would say the final score isn't in. It just will take a little longer to see how it plays out. All the best to you.

[Chris Haynes]

I was under the impression that the club paid for the Chief and Asst. Chief judges travel. Am I incorrect?

[redfred84]

The Club pays the travel of the Chief Judge to any of the National Meets that perform Judging. In the past, both the Chief, and the Assistant Chief had their travel expenses taken care of by the Club. But that was streamlined at last years' Eustice BOD meeting in massive cost savings budget cut across the board. As it stands now; The Chief is compensated for travel at Judging events. If, he does not attend, then the Assistant, or a National Deputy Judge can fill in, and be compensated for their travel, but never two at the same time. The BOD also did away with the Govenment mileage cost, and only compensates for fuel; no more vehicle wear & tear allowance like the National Rate.
RF.