Three Speed for 1914 Hedstrom Indian

[Spacke2speed]

I have seem a steering stop on a Indian that someone made that was a extension of the front leaf spring clamping plate. It was not in addition to, but it was made as one piece.

On Post 12, I quickly went over a method that would allow using a PP clutch pedal on a ’14. If needed, I could go into more detail.
As far as your location suggestions, boy, you are really giving me a “remember what my Indian looks 15 years ago” test. So here goes:
I am not saying it cannot be done a different way, just some issues with alternative mounting locations for a PP clutch pedal to think about.
Mounting it on the floorboard bracket moves the pedal back further and the foot pad on the pedal will be closer to the primary chain cover. Resulting in the having to use the heel of the shoe to press down the clutch pedal, which will cause the heel of the shoe to get caught on the tab on the front of the primary for the clutch pedal return spring. At the same time, there needs to be clearance from left to right for the clutch pedal shaft to cross over. The clutch pedal shaft if moved too high will cause the PP clutch pedal arm will interfere with bottom of the primary cover. Then to clear the primary cover the foot pad will have to be dropped down lower. Dropping the pedal pad lower will shorten the clutch pedal travel before it hit the front running board bracket. Moving it back to clear the front running board bracket the pedal would results in not being able to be pushed down any further because of the running board and mounting bracket limits the amount it can be push down. The PP clutch pedal has a tab for the return spring which goes to the riveted tab on the front of the primary, so the primary tab may need relocating because of moving the pedal back. If there is too much relocation distance, there are “clocking” issues to deal with on the right side as the angle of the master and slave clutch levers will be off. If the right side clutch levers are at the wrong angles the clutch levers will not work properly with the curve of the quadrant above next to the gas tank.

[Shaky Jake]

That's a lot of good info, Spacke2speed, some of which can apply to my '16. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

When I was pushing my '16 around Davenport, I noticed what you said about the linkages slipping out if the handlebars turned too far. Since I don't have a rear stand on it yet, I was always leaning it up against awning poles and such, whenever I stopped. Most times the handlebar would flop over and one of the linkages would slip out. Or even worse, it would slip close enough to the end of it's travel to get cocked, and then you had to fiddle with it to get the handlebars to turn. I was thinking about trying to come up with some kind of steering stop.

I woke up thinking about the process of putting the '16 and newer clutch pedal on the '14 frame. I don't have a '14 to look at, but would it be easier to make a clutch pivot that mounted to the rear footboard mount bolts? I'm thinking of a pipe with a brass bushing inside it, and a tab welded to it, then use longer bolts so they pass through the rear floorboard mount, through the tab, and nuts on top. Or, if there isn't room for that, use a repop rear floorboard mount and weld the pipe directly too it. Just a thought; I don't know if it would work or not.

Gordon, it was good to see you at Davenport, even though you beat me to the punch on three or four parts I wanted. I'll send you a link to the pictures of that rear stand at Anamosa that we were talking about.


Kevin

.

[Spacke2speed]

PP brake pedal mount issue:
A slight correction, the ’14 clutch lever mount stud mounts on the bottom of the motor using the bottom motor case bolt hole, not the forward engine mounting plates.
The ’14–‘15 brake pedal mounting shaft looks like the ’14 clutch pedal mounting shaft. Only the larger diameter between the motor mounting plates and the pedal is longer to space it out further from the mounting plates so the brake pedal will clear things, it will still have the stepped diameter shaft that goes through the stepped motor and mounting plates holes. In using the Hedstrom brake pedal, also requires a bracket mounted on the next motor mount case bolt up from the pivot stud. This bracket acts as a brake pedal return stop and has a tab for the brake pedal return spring to hook into. Note: The pedal stop bracket is missing on the Indian I sent you pictures of. I can measure the large diameter length from the motor mount to the brake pedal for you if you go that way.
If you have the PP brake pedal and only have the ’14-’15 rear foot board mount. One interesting solution to that problem is: I use to have some PP rear footboard mounting brackets that the actual brake pedal mount was a separate casting that was brazed onto the ’14-‘15 rear footboard brackets, then nickel plated. At the time, I assume they were either real early ’16, or that Indian later on was modifying their excess ’14-‘15 inventory and selling them as replacement PP parts.

[Spacke2speed]

The sprocket issue:
First, all the sprockets have to match the clutch basket sprocket as that one is fixed. You want to run the later wider sprocket PP clutch basket if at all possible, besides the primary chain is BEHIND the primary chain cover so nobody will see it. Whatever width of the clutch basket sprocket you have is the size of chain you bring to the party and run on the front chain.
While it is easy to say 520 and 530 chains, what can you get NOW!!!! The earlier 520 chain are narrower than the modern 520 chain. The same goes with the old 530 to modern 530 chains. The inside width of the roller is the same old to new, but on the modern chains, the outside links are wider, making the overall width of the chain wider. The modern sealed chain is out of the question as it is way too wide.
The motor sprocket is easy, using a worn out motor sprocket, cut off the teeth and weld on a new sprocket with the center cut out to match. I would make a step in the machining cuts for alignment and use a new sprocket that is wider then you want, so that after welding, you can cut the sprocket narrower to the width you want and running true, plus you get the bonus points of adjusting the finish sprocket width closer or farther away from the motor to match you clutch basket if needed.
We are assuming that your transmission output gear is in good shape and you rear hub is in good shape. The inside sprocket on the transmission and the rear hub sprocket need to fit tight on their hubs, so the inside hole it more important than the outside.
The inside sprocket on the transmission is another area that care must be taken. As you do not want the front chains to hit the rear chain and still have clearance with everything in the transmission area. Again, weld on new sprockets to good sprocket bases. If you are using repo sprocket that match the wider width chains you are using, check the width of the sprocket width that the hubs will take. You may need to narrow the sprocket at the hubs, again if you need to do this, you can adjust the chain location by how you narrow the sprocket.
Before you start cutting and welding, you must remember that your overall ratio is a combination up of the primary drive ratio and the rear drive ratio. You overall ratio will determine you top speed. The front ratio will determine how easy it is to start your motor, plus the kick starter ratio is involved in starting. The rear ratio will determine how easy it is to start off from a stop.

[Glr101s]

Back from Davenport and came home with a pile of very useful parts and some good direction on how to move forward. Also, I took alot of pictures of Hedstrom and PP bikes, concentrating on the brake and clutch areas. If I can figure out how to post these I will. Please feel free to email me at glr101s@aol.com and tell me how!

THANK YOU Spaecke2speed for incredibly detailed and thoughtful replies. You are an amazing resource!!

As to my project, Davenport was a major success as I was first in line when a Powerplus basket was being parted out. I scored a cluctch release lever, PP clutch pedal and crossover shaft. I now have two options for the clutch linkage:

1)Use the stock 1914 lever and links that crossover behind the motor using the motor mounting plates. I only have a clutch pedal and the incredibly flimsy clutch mounting shaft that mounts on the forward engine mounting plates.

2)Use the PP design which requires fabrication of a pivot bracket to replace the bushing cast into the crankcase on '15 Hedstrom and PP engines. I now have everything to do this except the fabricated brackets. This is the approach Spacke2speed described in an earlier post.

Brake pedal mounting is still open. PP used a footboard support to mount the brake pedal pivot, but the foot board design is enough different from '14 that I might as well make someting. Plan B is to mont a pedal pivot to the rear engine plates ala '15 Hedstrom. I do not have a '15 brake pedal, but the PP repop I have looks like it can be modified.

Now might be a good time to mention my inviolate rule of building non-standard Indian bikes or making modifications to same: NO usable original parts are to be destroyed in the process!!! (The corollary is that no mercy is shown to repops!)

Back to the story. So, plan A is to find or make a '15 mounting shaft, assuming I can find one to copy. The PP footboard mounting, like all PP stuff, is more robust so the jury is till out on my brake pedal.

Next decision is sprockets. Noting that one of my strengths is the ability to overlook the obvious, it hit me at Devenport that there is an obvious chain mismatch in adding a PP trans to a '14. All the chains in a '14 are 520 (1/4" wide); while all the chains on a PP are 530. So, the engine sprocket and the rear wheel sprocket I have are correct for '14, but not compatible with the PP clutch and transmission.
There are two of alternatives for the primary:

1)Make an engine sprocket for the smaller taper Hedstrom crankshaft (anyone have someone who can do that?) or

2)machine down the width of the primary sprocket on the clutch to 1/4" width (doable, but a violation of the inviolateable rule not to destroy good original parts!)

For the rear the choice is simpler:

1)Cut down a repopo drive sprocket to 1/4 inch or

2)Use a 530 sprocket on the rear which works, but is visually wrong from 10 feet away.

So, lots to think about. Your thoughts are welcome. Please feel free to email me directly if you want any specific pictures of parts.

Gordon

[Spacke2speed]

One thing I forgot to mention at the very first or I should have asked “What you want to do with your Indian when you are done?”. While I will admit my ’14 Indian was piece together, even thought it looked like a very original barn find, even down to all the original paint, original hardware, and original plating. While I had everything to make it very stock just as it left the factory, I wanted to tour it, not show it (sorry AMCA). While it was very correct down to the details, I wanted my Indian to look like the original owner updated it back in the mid to late teens and just parked it in 1920, until I found it. When asked what year my Indian was, I would tell them it was an updated 1914 and name the updates. So based on what you want as your end result, be careful with what you use as a reference when putting your Indian together. There are a lot of restored motorcycles out there on the internet and in person that are pieced together from wrong year part, some minor parts, some major parts, but still claiming to be correct.
Sorry, I will get off the soap box and back to business.
If the motor serial number that are stamped on the magneto does not match the motor case serial numbers, it is not important, but it is cool if it does as that means you still have the original magneto. With all the original matching number stuff, means your magneto timing will easily reset back to factory correct timing by just dropping the pieces back in.
The way Indian set up the magneto controls linkage, while the Indian is running, idling or going down the road, the magneto will want to retard by itself, unless you keep the handgrip advanced by holding it in the advanced position. Either a spring needs to be added to keep it advanced by itself (which is what I did) or some other method needs to be employed to keep it advanced once started and/or left running to itself.
On the Messenger Supera leaf spring seats that ’14 Indian used (and the slightly version ’13), check the area around the bolt hole in the leaf springs for cracks, this is a very common problem area. The cracks will weaken the tips of the springs, causing them to sag as they come out the mounting bracket, even deforming the bracket some, which will cause the rear of the seat to drop.

[Spacke2speed]

Linkage
One of the problems with the Indians of that period is the mechanical control linkage. While it is neat and look great, it can be an issue if not set up correctly. One problem area is slip joint between the handle bars and the frame neck pivots. You will see a lot of the original sleeves that are split, side broken out, or just plain broken. If the handle bars are turned too far, the slip joints with come apart. While this normal does not happen while riding, one area it does happen is when putting the Indian up on its rear stand. During that time, as the handle bars flop over, a friend will help you out by grabbing the handle bars and turn them straight. If the slip joints are about to come apart when the handle bars are straighten, the slip joints will cock and break. I original use to drop them apart after each day’s tour when putting it up on the rear stand or when it came time to tie down the Indian so as to not break them. Later, I switch to the ’17 slip joints as they are longer. To drop them required the handle bars to be raised to get them apart. I do not remember if I use a combination of years or all ’17, so you need to be careful that they may be too long and require some “trimming”.
Some people replace the jointed linkage inside the handlebars with cable and make special ends like the Indian ends. If you do, remember to use cable that does not untwist in both directions.
There is a simple way to change the throttle over to right hand throttle. Let me know if there is any interest, I think I know where there is an Indian that that has been done to which would allow me to take pictures.

[Spacke2speed]

Oppps Just remembered on Schebler carburetors. I have seen the air valve assembly (flapper valve) fall of the carburetors during tours. The carburetor will not work without it and the motor dies. While I have heard it happening to others, here are two examples I witness. A friend had his fall off, only just after it fell off, a car ran over it making it oval shaped. We borrow a hammer from a local farmer and alongside the road we were able to reshape it. Got it good enough to screw back on and continue on the three day tour. Another friend had his fall off, only it went bouncing off the side of the road into a flooded (4 feet deep) drainage ditch alongside the road. The good news I had a spare one in my tool box on ’14 Indian which ran a Hedstrom carburetor.
A lot of people safety wire them so they do not lose them.

[Spacke2speed]

All
Carburetor – both setups
All the years of riding and touring my ’14 Indian, I used the Hedstrom carburetor with no problem. Other people tried them, but quickly switch over to the Schebler carburetors. If you do decide to run a Hedstrom carburetor here are a few things to keep in mine.
All the major parts have matching numbers, so if you have matching numbers, when you screw everything back together, everything should align up correctly. Yes, I said screw together, they are assembled (screwed) using fine threads. When reassembling, screw everything back together tightly (not too tight as they are extra fine brass threads) so that the vibrations from running the motor will not wear out the threads, if thread wear has already happen, then the parts will clock too far, requiring making shims to get thing aligned properly when tight. Also if the Hedstrom is made up from parts, the joints will not clock properly which will require shimming.
The Hedstrom carburetor operates on a different theory. It has a fix gas metering jet and an adjustable “manifold leak” to richen or lean out the mixture. All other carburetors use a fix air and an adjustable gas mixtures.
When removing and cleaning the fix gas metering jet on the Hedstrom carburetor, DO NOT SCRAPE OR FILE THE GROOVES. If somebody has done it in the past, the mixture will be way off and the carburetor will not work.
All joints need to be air tight in the complete system. The manifold sleeves to the manifold, the manifold sleeves to the intake dome, intake valve tappet to the tappet guide nut, the intake dome to the head. Besides affecting the carburetor settings, it will cause one of the cylinders to run hotter than the other.
The outer diameter of the throttle barrel and the inner diameter of carburetor body that it rotates in will be worn. This is because with the center spring is too stiff. Indian originally put a stiff spring in to take up all the extra play in all the throttle linkage joints. While this is an interesting approach, it causes excess wear in the throttle barrel area.
Excess play in the throttle barrel to its housing will cause variable idle speeds as it will change from racing to dying, it also may cause issues with shifting.
To start your Indian using a Hedstrom carburetor:
1 Close the throttle down.
2 Using the handle on the sheet metal disc, close the curved slotted opening on the side of the throttle barrel valve.
3 Close the knurled knob on top of the starter carburetor.
4 Start you motorcycle.
5 Open the knurled knob on top of the starter carburetor.
6 The sleeve on the side of the starter carburetor may need to be slid over part of the side holes to richen or lean out the starter carburetor. If adjusted correctly, the ’14 will start and idle on the starter carburetor.
7 Using the handle on the sheet metal disc, open the curved slotted opening on the side of the throttle barrel valve to the predetermined run position. Mine was half way open.
If your throttle barrel valve has a good fit, you may not need to do steps 2 and 7. If so, then you just keep the sheet metal disc at the run position and just keep the throttle closed while doing the other steps during starting.
One thing I have noticed that all the years of running my ’14 Indian, I did not have to change the Hedstrom carburetor “run” or “start” settings. They were the same at sea lever (around home), or 5000 feet (highest I have toured at). While other people (and myself with my Spacke powered Minneapolis) using Schebler carburetors have to readjust the Schebler between the two different altitudes.
If you are going to use a Schebler carburetor. You need to find a Schebler’s Indian intake manifold (looks like a Yale intake manifold) which uses a screw-on Schebler, Schebler sold this setup as a replacement for the Hedstrom carburetor. Or you need to find a ’15 Indian intake manifold setup which uses the small three bolt Schebler carburetor. A lot of people like to use later carburetors, the later small three bolt pattern Schebler, the small three bolt pattern L&L carbs, and small three bolt pattern Linkert carbs like those used on Harley trikes.

[Spacke2speed]

All
Sorry about not posting the pictures yet, but I need to get permission from the owner of the Indian before I will be able to post any pictures of his Indian on a public sight. He is away on vacation right now.
For now, I will start sending you suggestions/issues to look into about touring your ’14 Indian.
Clutches
If possible, try not to use the ’14 two speed clutch. If you are, here are some issues with that style of clutch. The ’14 clutch is like the earlier pedal clutches. They has eight pins that grooved rollers ride on and the main clutch basket has a wire in the inside edge that runs in the grooved rollers. The eight roller pins and the four main pins are riveted in and have a tendency to come loose – ahhhh – will come loose if not already loose. The back side of the pins will need to be welded in place. The wire in the center that the main basket rides on also have a tendency to come loose, again, will come loose, it should be lightly tacked in place. The pins for the rollers (the ones with the small screws in the heads) need to keep oiled to keep the rollers rolling, if not keep oil the roller will seize up and the clutch will have a lot of drag when disengaged, making shifting hard. If too much oil is used in the roller pins, the oil will go on the clutch plates and cause them to slip. These early clutch also relay on just FOUR springs for clutch pressure.
One of the main issues about using these old clutches is the wide width of the modern chain that is available.
On a friend’s 1913 Excelsior I was working on, the rear chain would keep spitting out its master link keeper clip. This was due to modern chains are wider than what the system was designed for. To solve the problem we had to point the master link on the front chain out and the master link on the rear chain in. After that, no more keeper clip issues.
The Power Plus clutches are a lot heavier duty clutch and will stand up to a lot of touring without any problem. The later PP clutches use a wider chain then the early PP clutches. Which means the motor and the rear wheel sprockets can also be wider. This means it is easier to get chains you can use. The PP clutch had a lot of positions for clutch springs. So depending on the stuffiness of the springs you are using, and your style of starting off from a start, more or less springs can be use to dial in your correct clutch pressure. Important: if using less than a full amount of springs (which I always did), keep the distribution of springs even around the clutch, which will apply even pressure all around the clutch.
The ’15 clutch cover plate has grooves in the clutch pressure adjusting bolt holes that match the grooved in the clutch pressure adjusting bolts. Indian changed is after only one year. I recommend using the ’16 up clutch pressure adjusting plate, which uses a clutch pressure adjusting bolt lock plate. That way there is no chance of the settings changing.

[Tom Lovejoy]

Yep, I would be interested in seeing the set up too. As I am trying to do the same, thanks.

[Shaky Jake]

Can you send them to me in an email. My email is glr101s@aol.com. The pictures would be very helpful!! Thanks in advance.
Gordon

If you include me on that email I would be glad to host them and attach them to this thread. I would be interested in seeing them and there will probably be others too. I'm at knaser@inebraska.com

Thanks,

Kevin

[Glr101s]

Gordon
You mentioned that you do not know which clutch pedal you had.
So here are some pictures of a Hedstrom in a two speed chassis with a ’15 transmission install long age using a PP clutch pedal setup. I thought you might want to see these pictures in case you do have a PP clutch pedal, and not to worry, it is still workable. The frame still has the two speed shifter boss on the top frame tube, but is not used. What is interesting is the use of a PP clutch foot pedal, as well as the PP clutch lever arm. The clutch pedal mounting brackets use the bottom hole of the rear motor mount plates and the bottom motor case nuts.
I have taken these pictures, but being new to this Forum thing, do not know how to attach them.
8485 -Two speed shifter is used, transmission has interlock system
8486 - Front ¾ view of two speed shifter
8487 - Rear motor mount plate with cross over hole in it, but no bushing, not using a crossover
8489 - Brake pedal stud with brake pedal on bottom of rear motor mount plates
8492 - Shows the kick start arm mounting bracket
8490 - This is a setup that uses a PP clutch pedal, so a pedal shaft mount was needed – right side
8493 - Left side of the setup that used a PP clutch pedal
If you want, I can take a also take a pictue of the transmission to help you ID yours, it is a '15 with the shifting interlock. But how do I get them to you
Sorry I do not know how to attach these pictures
Spacke2speed

Can you send them to me in an email. My email is glr101s@aol.com. The pictures would be very helpful!! Thanks in advance.
Gordon

[Spacke2speed]

Gordon
You got me thinking about my old ’14 Indian and now memories of issues are coming back.
Your kick starting setup could have issues if everything is not right. The gear ratchet teeth interface with the ratchet teeth on the outside clutch plate must be in good shape, with no excess tolerance. The kick starter arm gear must mesh properly with the clutch starter gear. The kick starter arm mounting must be ridge with not flexing, not excess tolerance, and tight. If one or more of these things is not right, half way through your kick starting stroke, the gears or ratchet with disengage, not good on your knees.
Spacke2speed

[Spacke2speed]

Gordon
You mentioned that you do not know which clutch pedal you had.
So here are some pictures of a Hedstrom in a two speed chassis with a ’15 transmission install long age using a PP clutch pedal setup. I thought you might want to see these pictures in case you do have a PP clutch pedal, and not to worry, it is still workable. The frame still has the two speed shifter boss on the top frame tube, but is not used. What is interesting is the use of a PP clutch foot pedal, as well as the PP clutch lever arm. The clutch pedal mounting brackets use the bottom hole of the rear motor mount plates and the bottom motor case nuts.
I have taken these pictures, but being new to this Forum thing, do not know how to attach them.
8485 -Two speed shifter is used, transmission has interlock system
8486 - Front ¾ view of two speed shifter
8487 - Rear motor mount plate with cross over hole in it, but no bushing, not using a crossover
8489 - Brake pedal stud with brake pedal on bottom of rear motor mount plates
8492 - Shows the kick start arm mounting bracket
8490 - This is a setup that uses a PP clutch pedal, so a pedal shaft mount was needed – right side
8493 - Left side of the setup that used a PP clutch pedal
If you want, I can take a also take a pictue of the transmission to help you ID yours, it is a '15 with the shifting interlock. But how do I get them to you
Sorry I do not know how to attach these pictures
Spacke2speed