1948 Prairie Green and Bonnevilles literature

[PRG]

Howdy sir,

It most definitely does, thanks for your response! My battery ignition machine too is under the 25th, not many of its brothers from this range still out there.

Short(ish) story. Ex Penn state police bike with the dealer decals still on it from the civilianization of it in the 40's, it resided in a candy shop built like Noah's arc alongside a Stanley Steamer outside New Cumberland PA. Elmer Lower and Robin Markey referred to it as the candy store Four when they were growing up. At some point decades ago the widow wanted it fluffed up so they recadded the original spokes and laced it up to 18 inch Honda rims. From there it went to Harrah's museum and when that liquidated back to the Midwest where Rocky H located it for me in Oct 95. After pulling the motor down for a look-see, did a freshening, 8 springs and a Chaldant and took it to Bike Week in 96. Elmer, Robin and many old schoolers there about fell out at its first public appearance after seemingly vanishing all those years. Been riding it ever since.

Edit: was chided by PM about no pix to go with this long winded wandering tale so here goes, 76 pics at the link below.

https://petergz.smugmug.com/Motorcyc...Four/i-JDLs8Kd

[D.A.Bagin]

Howdy Bob,

The 48 serif dating is per Steven's description as my first-day production has footers and spare set of 64XX cases are plain. Not to hijack thread but still trying to determine when ignition types on 440's went from the vin pad to below as my very early one has them inline with the vin on the pad. Have only seen one like it and that was years ago by chance not having thought too much about since until the vin authenticity subject reached prominence around here lately.

My 440 vin is under the 25th one built. B on vin pad, frame # on axle slipper, not on lower shock mount. Hope this helps in some way.

[cdf6333]

Thanks , I didn't even notice the lack of speedo. I filed that away years ago. I'm going to blow off the post

[Yellow53Chief]

Hi,
Based on the lack of a front wheel speedometer, and the appearance of what I can see of the instrument panel, I think machine in the front is actually a 1947 Chief. The colors in the background are more of a black/white photo. I think the photo has been 'colorized' by someone. The green does look like Prairie Green - and who knows what is happening here? It is a nice photo nonetheless.

[tfburke3]

I'm not buying that it was used in 1947 Tom, obviously restamped cases. The early 48's had the removable scraper, but had the snap ring, much longer, pinion housing. This required a healthy amount of aluminum added below the pinion gear to the right engine case to hold this longer housing.
For a case to be actual 1948 ( and up) there would be that "bulge" and a straight line across the valve tappet guides, as opposed to the set-up designed for the 30's oilers.
And I'd love to see a picture of a 1948 mag Chief ( as opposed to Bonne) set of engine cases. I think that Indian got 500 mags during the model year and that's when they made the Bonne's.
Bob

Hey Bob,The ebay nos case would have worked for my 47,I don't know if the case was late 47 or early 48 as only a right side was for sale.I wasn't aware of a bulge but it had the 47 and later straight casting under the tappet guides,the scraper hole, mag bushings and pinion with snap ring,an added benefit to just finding a 47 mag case half)
Tom.


Tom

[cdf6333]

Thanks again, I didn't see that one. For some reason I skipped photo in your group of pics.

[Yellow53Chief]

Hi,
1948 Chief CDH1254M was built before the run of 500 'BM' machines. That machine is currently running a Joe Hunt magneto and electric start, so it has been modified some. I'm assuming that there were others built before the batch of 500, but I don't have any photos of them. I have photo sets of 30 different 1948 Chiefs, that I don't know the serial number of. Some of those might be early 'M' machines, but I have no way of knowing.

[cdf6333]

Thanks, and this is definitely after the run of 500 Bonne's. I'd really like to see if any were made before those.

[Yellow53Chief]

Hi,
These two photos are of an original paint 1948 Chief CDH6839M. Michael Breeding had photo sets available of this machine some years ago. I don't know where the machine is now. The machine is assembled, so detailed photos of the engine cases is not available. I checked the other 'M' engines I have photos of, and all are assembled and in machines, so I don't have any good photos of the 'M' engine case details. 1948 Chief CDH6839M A.jpg1948 Chief CDH6839M B.jpg

[cdf6333]

I'm not buying that it was used in 1947 Tom, obviously restamped cases. The early 48's had the removable scraper, but had the snap ring, much longer, pinion housing. This required a healthy amount of aluminum added below the pinion gear to the right engine case to hold this longer housing.
For a case to be actual 1948 ( and up) there would be that "bulge" and a straight line across the valve tappet guides, as opposed to the set-up designed for the 30's oilers.
And I'd love to see a picture of a 1948 mag Chief ( as opposed to Bonne) set of engine cases. I think that Indian got 500 mags during the model year and that's when they made the Bonne's.
Bob

[tfburke3]

Hi,
As far as 440 serial numbers go, I don't have many examples, but the ignition type is sometimes seen on the number pad, below the number pad, or missing completely. PRG; if you PM me I'll share what I have.
I went through my 1948 Chief engine serial number collection. I have around 150 examples. 70% are 'B' engines. 10% are 'BM' engines. 3% are 'M' engines. Numbers that appear to have been altered/modified/restamped/etc. account for about 17% of the 150 total. The good news is that 83% of the numbers appear to be good factory original stampings. Many of my serial number photos have come from eBay and this may skew the monkeyed-with number percentage higher than it truly is in the total number of survivors. I have many more than 150 1948 Chief photo sets, but many don't show the engine serial number.
As far as the dropping of the 'H' headers and footers, I can't get any closer than mentioned earlier in this thread. For the 1948 engine case change, the switch to the line-bored crankshaft bearing races and cast-in flywheel oil scraper happened between CDH2231 and CDH2332. I'm not 100% sure about the line-bored crankshaft bearing races. The line boring may have happened earlier. Below are the only four 1948 'M' engines I know of; CDH1254, CDH6839, CDH6841, and CDH6981. The highest 1948 Chief I know of is CDH7148.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]18752[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]18753[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]18754[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]18755[/ATTACH]

The pinion race with snap ring came before the cast in scraper,I guess late 47 or early 48.
I saw evdience of this on ebay while bidding on a nos right side case for my 47.Nos, with mag bushings,
scraper hole and pinion with snap ring.Unfortunately I was not high bidder.Sorry I don't think I have apic.
Tom

[Yellow53Chief]

Hi,
When it comes to altered/modified/restamped/etc. engines; some were clearly 'B' engines, and some had no ignition stamping at all. For a better breakdown of ignition type, the original production of 1948 Chief engines was probably 80% 'B' (Battery ignition), 15% 'BM' (Bonneville equipment with magneto ignition), and 5% 'M' (Magneto ignition with no Bonneville equipment). The truth might be a few points one way or the other, but I think the 80/15/5 split is pretty close. For 1946 and 1947, I don't think as many 'BM' machines were built percentage-wise. The 500 batch of 1948 'BM' Chiefs skews 1948 'BM' production higher than the 1946 and 1947 production.

[Yellow53Chief]

Hi,
As far as 440 serial numbers go, I don't have many examples, but the ignition type is sometimes seen on the number pad, below the number pad, or missing completely. PRG; if you PM me I'll share what I have.
I went through my 1948 Chief engine serial number collection. I have around 150 examples. 70% are 'B' engines. 10% are 'BM' engines. 3% are 'M' engines. Numbers that appear to have been altered/modified/restamped/etc. account for about 17% of the 150 total. The good news is that 83% of the numbers appear to be good factory original stampings. Many of my serial number photos have come from eBay and this may skew the monkeyed-with number percentage higher than it truly is in the total number of survivors. I have many more than 150 1948 Chief photo sets, but many don't show the engine serial number.
As far as the dropping of the 'H' headers and footers, I can't get any closer than mentioned earlier in this thread. For the 1948 engine case change, the switch to the line-bored crankshaft bearing races and cast-in flywheel oil scraper happened between CDH2231 and CDH2332. I'm not 100% sure about the line-bored crankshaft bearing races. The line boring may have happened earlier. Below are the only four 1948 'M' engines I know of; CDH1254, CDH6839, CDH6841, and CDH6981. The highest 1948 Chief I know of is CDH7148.
1948 Chief CDH1254M.jpg1948 Chief CDH6839M.jpg1948 Chief CDH6841M.jpg1948 Chief CDH6981M.jpg

[1950Panhead]

The 48 serif dating is per Steven's description as my first-day production has footers and spare set of 64XX cases are plain.

Between CDH4086 and CDH4226, Steve will refine.

Not to hijack thread but still trying to determine when ignition types on 440's went from the vin pad to below

I've seen them both ways for multiple years, Bob stamped the pad, Joe stamped the case, them four bangers.

[PRG]

Howdy Bob,

The 48 serif dating is per Steven's description as my first-day production has footers and spare set of 64XX cases are plain. Not to hijack thread but still trying to determine when ignition types on 440's went from the vin pad to below as my very early one has them inline with the vin on the pad. Have only seen one like it and that was years ago by chance not having thought too much about since until the vin authenticity subject reached prominence around here lately.