Magneto Timing Position

[murph]

There is not much difference between fixed and adjustable mags there both a bitch. I have a both and can't tell any difference.

[billpedalino]

Here is the culmination of what I have learned:

1. As someone suggested above, I measured the two mounting plates. As he suggested, I found that there is a difference of approximately 0.060" in the mounting plate thickness between the fixed base plate and the advancing magneto plate. The advanced plate is thicker, which mounts the magneto higher above the cam cover boss. With all other variables held constant, installing the mageto onto the fixed plate allows the point cam to rotate a little further clockwise, thus allowing the magneto to be swung a little less counterclockwise at the timing location. This affords proper air cleaner clearance while using the (correct) three caburator insulators. When properly timed, there is a gap of about 1/4" between the magneto cap and the air cleaner backing plate. Very Nice !!

2. Using the advancing mounting plate, I needed four insulators and the mag cap still hit the backing place with an interfeerance of about 1/8". Also, retarding the gear 1 tooth allowed of no timing retard after the linkage arm and mounting bolts were installed, thus negating the purpose of the advance setup.

3. There are different gear tooth-to-pin hole locations on the drive gears. However, these differences have very little affect on where the point cam lays out when the mag is installed. This defies logic, but its what I observed.

4. Given the above, it appears that the height above the cam cover has the most affect upon how far the magneto must swing out (counterclockwise) in order to open the points at the 45-degree BTDC firing position. I also suspect that there may be very slight diffrences in the circular attitude (starting point) of the differential cam gear spiral (that drives the magneto gear) as well, which would accommodate the timed magneto position for the later advanced setup. But rather than observation, this is purely supposition on my part.

In any event, The Harley Gods forced me to install the correct setup on my '64 and now I must find the correct fixed-grip left handlebar. My right knee be-damned!!

Looks like I'll take the advice of another member on this forum - hold the kill button until the very bottom of the kick-stroke. Why did I never think of that??!!??

Thanks again to you all for your valuable input.

[vph-d]

Murph,
Thanks for the dealer decal photo. I was able to make out the Ashland Ave street name, and wondered if it could have been in Chicago. I grew up in the Chicago area, but don't remember South Side. Maybe before my time, or I have just forgotten them. Thanks, Again.
VPH-D

[murph]

How about a picture of the dealer sticker on your oil tank? That kind of detail is wonderful. Both machines are great examples of why the XLCH ruled the road back in the 60s. They looked as fast as they were just sitting still. If it helps, the p/ns for the hose brkt clips are 63611-53, and 63612-53.
VPH-D

Best one I have, this is an early pic some of the finishes are wrong but have since been corrected.

[vph-d]

How about a picture of the dealer sticker on your oil tank? That kind of detail is wonderful. Both machines are great examples of why the XLCH ruled the road back in the 60s. They looked as fast as they were just sitting still. If it helps, the p/ns for the hose brkt clips are 63611-53, and 63612-53.
VPH-D

[billpedalino]

I've been wrenched! '66 was the oval air cleaner!

[murph]

The 65 still had the round air cleaner cover, not to throw a wrench into your thoughts though. Glad to hear your on your way!

[billpedalino]

Problem solved - As Murph suggested, I added another white insulator between the carb and the manifold and that afforded plenty of room. This is what I think is going on; I'm using the '65 and later advance setup. 1965 was also the year that the oval air cleaner was introduced. I believe that the bottom of the oval air cleaner backing plate was slightly higher than the round one (I didn't dig an oval one out of storage, so I'm guessing), thus allowing a little more swing toward the advanced position. If I installed this as a fixed-magneto, I would have simply dropped back a tooth and positioned the magneto closer to the rear cylinder, locked it down and would not have given it another thought. In any event, it now advances and retards properly and the 4th insulator is not even noticable, except to an astute judge. However if and when I decide to have the bike judged, I'll install the locked-mag plate and left handlebar for that process.

Thanks for all the input!

[murph]

The bracket should be parkerized for the oil tank along with the bolts. My 62 pics are older and the finish was incorrect at the time. I have since corrected the finishes but have no up to date pics. The chain oiler brackets are tough to find. Maybe you can post some close ups of your issue with the mag in the motor. They were close. Here are some shots of another 62 I did, it was close as well.

[billpedalino]

Kerry,

I recevied a gear with a 1/2-tooth hole difference from Dave Shaw at Morris Magneto. It does make a difference, but not enough to solve the interference issue. I turly can't figure out why - it makes no sense to me. At the firing position the cam drive doesn't move, the point gap is kept constant, and the hole in the rotor obviously doesn't move. The ONLY variable is the hole in the gear and how it advances or retards the point cam at the firing position. Between all 5 gears, I'm getting a full 18 degree variation in rotor location and it's not enough to make an apprecaible difference! I don't get it! Obviously, I'm missing the concept here.

I did find that adding one more insulator between the carburator and the manifold (total of 4) easily solves the air cleaner interferance problem, should I NOT be able to figure this one out. But I simply hate to give in! I'll speak with Dave Shaw again - he has 40 CONTINUOUS years of experience with magneto Sportster and he's never reluctant to help. I really recommed Morris Magnetos - great guys.

Murph,

EXCELLENT photos - thanks so much. Your '62 has exactly the same hose connection configuration as my '64 did when I purchased it. Some of the guys on this forum say it's wrong for the '64, but I KNOW it was stone stock when I bought it; 4 years old, flogged to death and never taken apart.

I do have a question about the front, lower oil tank bracket - what is the finish? I can't really tell from the photo. I seem to recall that it came gloss black just like the oil tank, but your's looks like its cadmium or grey.

Also, Until I reviewed your photos, I didn't remember the top oil hose clamp for the chain oiler hose that mounts to the top surface of the rear motor mount. Looks like I'm going to have fun trying to locate that one - I don't think I've ever seen one at the meets or on fleesebay. Might be a home-fabrication-and-parkerize item.

[kg993]

Bill, did the differently indexed gear do the trick? I was wondering if the thickness of the 65 parts is different than origional for the motor. If so the heigth difference will change the advance or retard of the shaft.
Kerry

[murph]

Here is a shot of a 59 ch with the chain oiler hose and the brackets.




This is the exhaust side of 62 ch



Here is the primary side, the bracket and bolts should be parkerized which I fixed. This is an old shot but the lines are the same.



I think 64 ch should have the barbed oil tank feed, I think it started late 62. Someone can correct me if im wrong.

[billpedalino]

Murph,

Do you have a close-up pic of the left side of your bike showing the oil tank hoses and fittings? I have three different horseshoe oil tanks for this bike and I want to make sure that I use the correct one. My recollection is that when I bught this this bike MANY years ago as a stone-stock '64 CH, there were 4 oil tank fittings on the vertical face of the tank, including the adjustable chain oiler block and valve, plus the bottom drain plug. I'm certain that the drain plug had no attached fittings - it was just the plug only. Others say that's incorrect. But, I also think that the oil tank changed in '63 or '64 when the deep-well drain was added. Please advise.

Thanks.

[murph]

Murph,

That is one absoultely beautiful Sportster......

Thanks! I also have a 69 with the mag advance and have to say it really doesn't help the knee that much. So maybe start from scratch to see how it lines up with out that advance set up and go from there. Or if your not concerned with stock as much, try adding another stock spacer with longer bolts. The average joe is not going to see you have 4 instead of three.

[billpedalino]

Murph,

That is one absoultely beautiful Sportster......